Its only a bus. The real name for Fresno's SE project should be called a Bus Oriented Project. The project isn't built on a Mass Transit System common to other areas. The project is deceptive in nature by misappropriating use of the term Transit Oriented Development (TOD).

According to the above post; this $18million Measure C funded bus stop is going to change the way many southeast Fresno residents travel? How many? 18? Good use of my tax dollars:
18 new bus riders cost $1million each
180 new bus riders cost $100,000 each
1,800 new bus riders cost $10,000 each

Updated. A development that could change the way many southeast Fresno residents travel is being presented to the public for input, with the first of two meetings being held 6 p.m. on Wednesday, Jan. 30 at the Sunnyside High School Cafeteria.
http://lateupdate.com/lifestyle/-transit-village-concept-for-southeast-f...

It's simple.

If I've posted something on FF that you wish to take me to task for, or compliment me on, it's here for you to do so. Private conversations can sometimes be misrepresented, misremembered, or taken out of context. Even that 'fact checking' you spoke of--that's a good idea---seeing if someone really said something or other on here once upon a time----if you can't remember where it was, it might be that you're mis-remembering exactly what they said....and once again, in a different context...

I'm sure no one wishes to be put in the time and energy destroying position of defending something they might not have even said or might have been misunderstood or made sense only in the flow of the conversation.

thanks.

I got your private message, as well as your comment on the above section of thread, regarding the 'semi-quote,' -and leaving your pronouncements of your beliefs in God, etc...

-oh yeah, Merry Christmas while, we're at it.

First off: having looked at the 'tracking,' option (because I was thinking... okay, I know this was said, -and I even understood where you were coming from when you said it... -It's buried in a string somewhere.
---The context I read the statement in was where you were in a discussion, the subject matter was on a social or land use issue (I don't think it was involving your concert for Toys for Tots,) and what I remember was a comment made in the context of God holding people accountable for their actions, (be it use of land, commerce, or treatment of other people.) It was basically a remark made that God sees people acting properly and improperly, -and deals with them accordingly.

-Do I have it combed out, highlited and the date, time, and string, sourced? Well, with more digging, I suppose I can find it, because I know I read it, but it's going to mean going conversation by conversation on FresFam for the past few weeks. (I can do that later, if you want, but need to do other things at this hour, but if you need it read back, okay, I'll see exactly where I read that from.)

It didn't strike me as being weird or innnapropriate because:
-A.) Lutheran doctrine does speak pretty clearly that it's a person's life revealed, and faith and walk with the Lord revealed throughout their life, (it's not the same as, say a Baptist or 'Non-Denom,' stance of
'Once Saved, you're in, you got your insurance,' sort of thing... (Eternal Security 'once saved always saved,' sort of thing...
With Lutherans it's more an issue of where a person is with God revealiing through time, and through their actions. (Which I respect as well, btw.)
I figured it made sense with where you've told me you attend church (PS: before you freak? You explained to folks online that you go to a Lutheran church in a conversation (again, I can look it up if you need it,) with PurpleHat ---back with that whole 'the Christian place to be on ArtHop thing.)

-B.) Doctrinally speaking?
The Bible does speak pretty clearly about God reviewing this life in Heaven, and their being rewards given to those who are found in Christ, -and this is based upon how they handled their responsilites, entrustments, and gifts, (I've heard analogies of it being sort of like an awards banquet or something, --where each person's 'acting as Christ would have us act,' -was recognized, (when it was probably done privately here in this life,) ---and it results in even more ways we could praise Christ, -by attributing the good we've done to Him, (as we feel He motivated and provided for us to do this,) ---it's the whole 'casting crowns,' thing...

Neither of these seemed to be off track from what you've said publically and prvately about your faith,
and I didn't know that considering your statements was something 'off limits,'
(Heck, I recall more than a few 'BikeHOPS' where you're riding along, asking theological questions, and varying social issues from the perspective of what it mean,
Bible and Church wise,
in front of a whole bunch of bike-hoppers.
I even remember you asking me stuff like 'so what's your take on the whole 'gay thing,' (good thing I'm not afraid to answer honestly in front of a lot of other folks, eh?)
-but that was like, a couple of years ago, when we hung out.
Would I discuss really personal issues about your life, your faith, your family, any of that on a public message board, (particlularly without you brining up the subject first?)
No. Of course not.

My inclusion of your sentiment on people's accountablity for their actions before God was simply something in a close proximity to your making a remark about such a thing in a manner that had been recently discussed, (and I don't know if it was regarding shopping issues, 'sprawl,' or whatever, but I recalled the issue because it was a remark about being accountable before God for what is done with the area and with others.)

Now, I realize in the world of 'quoting,' that it's important to have the exact statement at the ready, so that if such a situation as this were to come up? A person could defend their quote.
-I'll probably look more later, and see if I can find the thing, (If it's on here, I'll find it,) so that you understand that I was not missquoting, and not slandering you with some remark that missrepresents you.
Obviously, based by your public and private messages to me this morning, you're trying to figure out where I'm coming from, -and where I got such a thing.

That you DON'T feel this way?
Hey, fine by me.
Thanks for clearing that issue up,
(but again, I didn't spin it out of the air, and wouldn't do such a thing to you.)

That having been said, (and tabled for a few hours, as I really need to head off and accomplish some work,)

The 'dour,' situation I'm depicting, simply cannot be offset by saying
'I see a lot of people workign selflessly in volunteer capacities to make the place better.'

-Does this mean that you are not seeing 'a lot,' of people?
No...
Considering your tie ins with groups, your family involvements with such groups, and your continual awareness and involvement with radio stations, homeless help folks, and more 'grass-roots,' circumstances? I'm sure you see plenty of folks who do this.
-And they are all real, I know some of them too, and can vouch for their impact and the good that they do.

NOW:
Read this in the manner of which it's being meant (okay, not as some sort of attack on your character, nor on the efforts that you or others that you (who I also know, and have been involved with too,)
-Alright?

There is a HUGE population of 'Christians,' in Fresno and surrounding areas. (All sorts of Christians, Mega-Churches, Medium sized, House study groups, Small gatherings in small towns, -you name it.
If a poll were taken?,
I'd fathom a guess that (before the hairs were split into 'what kind of Christians,')
---It may be (just a wild guess,) Maybe Fifty to Sixty percent (maybe higher maybe lower) would be identified as 'people of faith,' (or) 'people who believe in God and try to follow what God basically says.' -Probably even more.
--You want 'avid Church goers?' --okay, that number may be less than 40 percent, ---heck it may be still more than half of the population. (dunno.)

I'll tie in some others too.
-Hang with the Progressives? (you know, 'Arts Types,')
-Well, lots of them are some sort of Buddhist Blend (not breaking down into the varying forms of Buddhism,) ---but a strong degree of folks in the area find themselves more in tune with varying 'Buddhist,' based philosophies (you'll hear of 'flow,' and such,) ---and are at least trying to live with some sort of 'Spiritual' lifestyle, and will speak heavilly of 'karma,' ---and how '...how you treat others, is how you will be treated, and how the things you do will come back to you...' as a sort of balance.
-THAT's huge too.

So...
Lets just say we have a town of 500,00 people
-and (heck, we'll hack it down to) a third of them are considering themselves to be Christian (IE: they believe that there is a God, they feel that they have a personal relationship with that God, -and they will tell you that they are to be lead by that God, (that such a relationship is interractive, and that they are to follow God as Lord,)
--so a third of 500,00 is, what...?
Roughly what... somewhere between 150,00 to 175,00?
(I suck at math...)
---but that's (only in 'Christian,' circles) around that figure who will acknowledge that they are into God, Follow Christ, and are about His teachings.

-Now, what did Christ Teach?

Next up?

Folks who believe in other stuff, (we don't want to leave them out...)
--Are ya into 'karma?'
-what sort of life you lead, and how you treat others, and view others will be given back to you???
Hey Great..
-Lets throw a random figure... -you think there are maybe a hundred people who go by this, -how about a thousand... ---lets go nuts and say,,,, maybeee... three thousand... (hows that.)

So, now we're just shy of 200,00 folks in Fresno and surrounding areas, who believe and practice some form of religious belief,
---where they will tell you, adamantly, 'what they do to others can affect (if not dictate) what happens to them.
---and who believe in the doctrines (taught in some churches more readilly than others,) 'As you treat others, and as you pour yourself out into the ministry of others, (tithe, etc,) ---you will be blessed in kind, ---even moreso..'

I'm not even going into whether what they believe is what I believe, or if it's right or wrong...
I'm just going with what they say they believe...

-Do you (when you see 'lots,' of people,) working selflessly,'
-see two hundred thousand people pouring out, giving, caring for the needs of others??? (Let alone living it as a lifestyle, let alone living it like their most important definition of themselves (religious identity,) -was understod, -(or in some cases,) afforded by that?
(do you?)

Now, keep in mind, --I went pretty low on my figures.

If somebody wanted to dig up a poll, I bet the figures of 'Christians and people of faith,' (any faith,) in Fresno would be well over Seventy to Eighty percent.
---It may even be as high as Ninety,
---and all these belief systems (Christian or not, ---even those who do not endorse any one 'god,' over another,) ---will all cite some sort of 'golden rule,'
'...Do unto others as you'd have those do unto you...'

I guess it comes down to the use of the word 'lots.'
You see 'lots.' I understand why you do.

I see, proportionatly speaking?
Not 'lots.'

-Do I cherish the work of those who are doing something? Sure, absolutely, and I'd not want to ever see their efforts discounted.

But I don't see 'lots.'

I see other things:

You read Fresno Famous a lot.. and MindHub, -so do I.

You see these characters running around here calling the homeless 'street-people who choose to live there.'
you see them called 'bums,'
you see people with emotional problems called 'perverts,'
those with other problems referred to as (merely) their problems???

You realize that most of them are claiming to be Christians too, right?

Compound the issue with a very strong 'Fresno,' spin...
(And if it came from Here, started here, or is from other areas, and is found in other areas? I don't care, ---that's not the point, the point is that it's HERE, and here in spades.)

-There is an attitude that is the complete opposite of any 'mercy,' and 'grace,' based belief system I've ever seen, (Christian or not.)
---and it is very strongly summed up by:
-If those folks are 'that way,' it's because (either) they want to be that way, or God is punishing them,
(And, -the real killer,)
-'God is calling us (Christians) to clean up this mess and move them on, move them out, make the place safer, ---and THAT is the right-Christian way of being responsible for what HE's given us.'

-You want your mind blown?
Look up the doctrines of race-focussed churches, race-promoting groups, and race-centric movements through history (US, Europe, etc.)
-They all say that...
Read the stuff that gets posted on Craigslist RandR ---they're still saying that.
They're saying it about Mexicans
About Blacks, About Jews, about Poor people...

That's Fresno too.
In fact?
I have never seen it anywhere as strongly as I see it here...

-It's actually found among a lot of 'Christians,' as well, and promoted (in varying shades, strengths, and accents.)
-IT runs the gamut of:
-'Our race is better, theirs is a pox,' (most extreme)
down to
-'Well, God will send some people to help them, we are too busy (which is basically apathy... way more widespread.)

All of this sounds pretty sinister, and you may not see it, (that's fine.)
But I do, and I see it and hear it all the time.

On a more grande scale?
(Lets go back to the people of faith in Fresno, ---which I'm guessing is again, probably HALF, --if not more of them.)

Why? If people in Fresno are seriously living out their beliefs, ---are they having to be told, time and again, to care for the poor? Not be so selfish? and to consider others???

-Do you realize that (I'm taking a wild shot,) Most pastors do not have MOST of their congregations banging down their doors saying
'...ya know, Pastor, we were all wondering how to help those folks, and we need your time to go over a few ideas we have here...'
-maybe they'll have a handful, and the handful have to kind of coax the rest. (And that's even in the churches where such things are preached.)

-Usually, you'll find a few families (in the church,)who are on the lower end of the financial spectrum being cared for, You'll have a board or a group who does outreach and missions and such (who gives to those groups,) you'll have a strong 'seasonal,' tide, --where the 'less fortunate,' are considered, (and things gathered for those folks ('angel-tree' etc.)
---and that's ALL good.

But most folks go to church, and have a relationship with 'God,' (among the Christian sector) ---because of how it benefits 'them.'

NOW:
-Are we (Christians,) supposed to be going to church, interracting with others, building this relationship with our community, and sharing the relationship we have with God, -(after being in communion with God first?)
-Yes, definitely.
-So there is a strong aspect of a Christian being (first,) in a close communion which is extremely nurturing for the individual.

-BUT-
-when you look at the construct of the relationship? (when you look at the construct of other religions as well?)
Why does this happen?
So we sit there purely occupied by our own efforts?
No.

In some of these other beliefs, ----you don't even have a spirituality until you're caring about and for others first.
-If anything, Christianity is sort of the odd duck, -in that one is assured of salvation NOT by what we do, -but by what an outside Deity has done... (The rest, to be honest, rely heavilly upon the actions, behaviors, and intent of the practitioner ---right up to the time of death.)

-If there was a situation where a practitioner of a faith can be a 'slacker?'
-Christianity actually (in terms of follower participation,) is the one where such a thing is possible, -and we still all make it to heaven and are blessed... (because it's not about 'what we do, it's about what has been done by someone (Christ,) for us.)
(-in folks minds, this can be twisted this way, weird but true.)

My point?
I think THAT may be one of Fresno's biggest problems.
Us.
The Christians.

-How can I say this?
Well, in case you havn't noticed?
We run the place.
-Look at the 'professed faith,' of the leaders of all aspects of it.
I betcha even the dog-catcher knows Jesus.

--And here's the louie in this:

When you have a bunch of people who are essentially raised in a belief, -even when they practice it, and 'know how to work it,' so to speak,
---They become sort of 'familiar,' ---even 'cold,' to it's teachings.

-They learn how to go through this practice and this belief system
(not) alive and having new sensitivities revealed,
---seeking new ways to serve others and God,
---but how to go through the necessary steps like I learn to go through ever changing reams of forms and paperwork with each new private, govt, or otherwise, -agency...

To a lot of 'Christians,?'
-life is making sure that you have your paperwork in order so that you can stay on the road, not be in the foul, and go about your own pursuits, -having done what is required, in case stuff goes wrong.

Further?
With Christians (especially,)
you have (in all honesty,) TWO modes of operation, (and they are profound.)

1. -You're either drawing closer to the center of the belief (God,) seeking to be more applicable to society, care more about what God cares about, -which means taking greater and greater risks, (in caring for others and caring for life in general..)
-or-

2. You compartmentalize, (again,) have 'that God thing down,' --and go off into your own pursuits, paying homage.
-But this aspect, (the NOT) yeilding to God? Actually is not static.
It results in a person growing colder, more distrustful of God and 'giving God the reigns,' --and becoming more 'self-occupied,'
To make it worse?
Most 'Christians,' start out really wanting to do what God wants, really want to care, and realy are all about giving and learning to serve...
-but as things go on, and that desire grows cold, -or is stomped out by life in general? They don't really believe it anymore, ---and they don't want to be reminded of that either, ---so they'll grow even colder, self-justified, and more hostile towards Christ changing their hearts and minds (particularly if it means the actions and urging of younger more 'zealous (aka) naieve' Christians.
--so yeah, Christians are not only the group that is more than happy to shoot their own wounded, -but we also grow hostile if it means coming back to a faith or confession and repentance BACK to a first love (which is Christ,) and His teachings (which is all about others, NOT all about us.)

And that is where I think a huge crossection of Fresno is.
(I'd put it in caps, but I think it was loud enough the first time...)
Fresno is a land of believers who don't really believe in their own God, -nor God's feelings on the issue, -much less God's commands.

-And THAT,
I think has a massive impact on everything.

How is this different from 'other areas of the country, and state-world, whatever?)

In general?
When you have a large crossection of people who have a wide variety of beliefs and reasons for doing things? There is actually more opportunity to discuss, come to common ground, and folks are 'forced,' to be open to each other and consider each other, (nobody has the market cornered in terms of any one 'belief system.'

When you have any one group getting really large, -and having a majority control of what happens to the people, the resources, the land, the govt, the businesses, (etc.)
--you not only get to deal with the 'good,' aspects of that majority, -but you also have to deal with the aspects of the 'bad.'

The upside of (Christians?)
-(When) We care about others more than ourselves, -and have the best interests of others and the resources in mind, ---and genuinely want to serve and glorify God by loving others, caring for them, and caring for 'the world,' ----because that's how God feels about them and it...
(So: if Christians are acting as Christians? Folks who do not consider themselves Christians should be able to say (without any sense of sarcasm,)
'...wow, I mean, we don't have the same beliefs, and I don't know about this 'Jesus and Christian thing...
-but you people...
-love my family as I do
-love me for me
-care about where I live
-care about if I'm eating okay
-care about this town, and are keeping it well
-want to make sure that folks can get around safely to what matters in their lives
-and are visibly, realistically, concrete demonstratively caring more about others than your own interests...
-jeesh, what IS it with you people, you really care, you honestly do, does this have anything to do with your god?

-You seeing that coming from one third the pop. of this town (200,00 people?)
or is it:

'-Yep, there go the Christians, they run the place, they have moved to their own little (BIG) part of the town, with their own Big churches, they seem to have better lives, (I guess,) -and we hardly ever see them, interract with them, and they seemed to be afraid of how we're going to ruin their world with our movies and music, and 'earth-day,' and 'feeding 'street people.'

To put it plainly:
If Christians would read their Bibles, they'd understand that they are
A.)cared for by God, (so they don't have to worry,) and B.) are told by God to care for others.

Here? Today? The percentages are completely flipped.
Most believers are all about God with themselves, love to worship and feel good, ---and need to be told to care about others, (repeatedly,) and it's like a garden hose coming over the top of Friant Dam...
'...oh yeah, we got a strong flow going... (trickle-trickle.)
In fact?
Next time you're with your group of 'lots of selfless caring,' folks, ask for a show of hands how many 'Christians, who love Christ,' are in that group???
-In most of them we're a few here and there, and (unless it's a church based group to begin with,)
MOST of the work of caring is done by those who are not Christians, have issues with Christians,(rightfully so,) -and who we (as Christias,) need to be really sensitive about even talking about our faith, and why we do what we do, -because theyv'e been so traumatized by 'evangelicals,' and are hypersensitive.

Remember that whole thing with me talking at Reedley, Blake? Remember? ...saying your being too religious and prostletyzing about your faith, when talking about being a chaplian during 9/11 'is like saying a watermelon is being too watermelony...'
-And that was me addressing a group in a 'Christian,' setting about my own experiences as a Christian Chaplain, -and praying with all faiths during a catastrophe...

I'm not at all against these other folks helping and caring for the sick, the poor, the homeless, --and care for them (as people and as a group,) greatly.
-I'm just saying
(IF)
-Christians are to be all about creativity, about caring for others, about taking care of what God has given us to be responsble for...
-Why are there so few in the groups that are doing it here in Fresno?

Now (Blake,) you don't want me talking about your faith and such,
hey that's fine.
I'll still try to find that comment, ----but it was not meant as any sort of attack, any sort of missquote, or anything like that.

My point in that write (and this one?)

You got a bunch of people running around this town, who have a lot of power.
And guess what?
They're Christians.
And they have their little silver fishies on their cars, and they fill the parkinglots of their churches, and the churches need more parking than Riverpark, Fashion Fare, and Manchester combined...
---and all these people are being told by God 'care about the poor, care about this world, you're responsible for them, and for this world, because I CARE about them and it, I MADE them and it, -and you are supposed to be conveying MY HEART on the issue.'

But most of them sit there, and it's like talking about carbourator repair with a housecat... (Even a pastor I heard yesterday was like '...even if there are walls up right now, because I was talking about 'giving,' -would you please consider later on this week, what caused those walls to go up.' (and, yep, he was tryig to make a point about caring for others.)

This is a huge percentage of the pupulation, who have most of the money, and who can get things done, ---or not.
And (on a religious sense?) Most of them think of themselves first.

The only way to deal with that?

Well, tell it to them straight, address the issue head on...

But also work with them like you would with any other self-absorbed infant.

First
-Point out how 'by helping others you're really helping yourself.'
(oh wait, that will be shot in the foot by the mention of the word 'others,' and 'help.' ---('you're just facilitating.)

Okay,
Second:
How 'bout
'...by building this (or that) municipal, transportation, health, educational, system*(s) you are preventing further health concerns.'
(good start, but problem is?
-Most folks don't really think ahead,
-they want what they want NOW, and often can't see (nor care,) about what happens tomorrow...
-besides they GOT money, and they GOT medical benefits,
---it's the poor people who have kids who get 'sick,' ('and drain our tax dollars with those 'programs,' dammit.'--as a lot of identified 'Christian,' leaders will comment (in this media and others.)

Final Option:
So you hide the medicine in the pudding, make the pudding taste real good, and hope that you can go out from there.

What usually happens?
'...Hey, it's cool, you'll be cool, it's convenient, -you want convenience, right? IT's CUTTING EDGE, -you want cutting edge, right? There are so many 'BENEFITS for YOU' in this...
Mass transit isn't going to be used by those smelly poor people and their soda cans, noooooooo, it will be clean bright, fresh, and it will be making good use of our resources, -and by TAKING it you're actually giving back, -and helping to make the air cleaner...'
Give them vouchers, give them tax breaks, find some way to praise them and make it easier think of it as 'convenience and positive,' --the whole time helping out 'others,' -quietly.

Yep all that.
Even figure out how it's going to make Fresno look better in a national PR sense...

WHATEVER IT TAKES...

But the reality of it is?
If it will fly, it's going to have to be so dressed up as 'good for you, and fun-fun too.'

-and you better not show any 'bums with cans,' getting on a single chariot, (folks 'll be grumbling enough that the signs are in English AND Spanish as it is...)

But:
You really want to see this change?

Get the Christians (and people of faith,) in Fresno to start acting like they've been told, -and shown, to act. Instead of like a bunch of self-interested babies.

(Think about it, Blake, this town went nuts about saying 'Happy Holidays,' instead of 'Merry Christmas,' a couple of years ago,
(I think I remember you having done a song about it, though I cannot recall the exact date, time and venue, (I'm thinking 'Full Circle Solo Show,' or something, but it's been a couple of years.)

----Do you realize that battle raged on while people starved, got sick, slept with no heat, and looked at 'the Christmas Season,' as something to be 'lived through, -maybe,' in the lower half of the town???
-But we're all embroiled in the need to keeping 'Christ,' in Christmas.

-Scharton
(I think it was him, have to fact check it,) was commenting on here the other day how folks are still all freaked out about legalizing marijuanna, (one way or the other,) -and 'sex education in schools.'

Now, I don't know where he was coming from, but my feelings (my feelings,) were in shock (not pro-or con,) but,
---with all of Fresno's issues, THIS is still a major one?

When the Christians here take off the blinders, and grow up a bit?
You'll be amazed at what will suddenly will change.

Until then?
Well, if you're white and/or you have money?
You'll be fine, (unless you start talking respiratory and kidney/internal organ concerns.) -but if you got money, you got med. coverage.

But the 'rest of Fresno,'
-You're going to be told 'how to not go to hell when you die,'
by those assured of heaven...
-but you're going to get to 'live in hell, in some very real ways' regardless.

Straight up?
I'm glad God cares and can do more with this town than his people do, and isn't limited by their behaviors.

1. What I see, in terms of anyone pushing to help in the abovementioned scenarios, -based upon population? Disproportionately small.

2. Why?
I think it ties in to the degree of 'Christians,' in this area who simply don't get why they're here, and are living in a completely opposite manner (which, in terms of 'city population,' -is a disproportionately large group.) And there is a phenomenal degree of 'Christians,' here.

3. Degree of 'Church leaders,' and such who mention this see it as a real problem and are either directly choosing to 'change this,' or are directly choosing to 'focus on other areas', -how 'bout, like ALL I've spoken to since moving here.

4. Amount of people actually 'doing something,' about it? (which would include such immediate needs as making sure those who don't have food or decent clothing and shelter actualy have it?) --disproportionatlely small for ANY people group (not even consideirng 'faith-based,' or not)

5. Amount of people who are calling 'any,' effort to help these folks (or deal with such things as mass transit, etc.)
--'facilitating further decay,'
'promoting illegal behavior,'
'socialism,'
'liberal missuse of funds and society (etc.)'
'encouraging illegal and immoral behavior.' ?
-Disproportionately large,
amazingly wide-spread, alarmingly well defended as 'actually helping those who deserve to be helped, (by rooting out the 'bad,)
and (stunningly) hateful.
--and that's just on 'human decency,' levels.

5a. -You go over to considering that we're dealing with such a large group of 'faith,' folks who feel and act this way?
Disgusting and scarey.

-and yeah, just to make it clear, you can quote this, ask questions about it, and/or stand closer or further based upon it.
I wrote it, it is what I'm seeing, and I realize it's my own observations, not anybody or everybody elses.

This place will only change for the better when 'God's People,' start acting like it, (because there are so many affecting things,)

Or God just 'does stuff,' in spite of his representatives warped missrepresentation.
(Which, is basically business as usual, for God, if we look back through time.)

Either way?
It's going to get interesting.
(...already has been, in fact, for some.)

-Eric

OotV wrote:
“I mean, how do you answer the constant cry 'I got a right to be free, to live my life the way I want, and to do and say whatever I please to whomever I please,”

Yeah, that’s a doozie. I think this feeling runs deep. Some people call it ‘freedom’—but don’t realize that their ‘freedom’ might step on someone else, or the community as a whole---
The balance between an individual’s fighting to control their own destiny and the good of the
group is one that’s as old as America itself . And the wish for all of us here Out West to have their own horse and their own ranch becomes problematic when you have 60 gazillion now living here
and that’s just simply not possible (or ‘sustainable’ I think’s the word).

As for this ?(if he was referring to me)
“--not long ago, you spoke of believing in a God who hands out life and blessing -according to how people act and what they do.”
I don’t know the context or time that this was ever said or misunderstood, because it is simply not what I believe, and I'm asking that Mr. Void leaves any pronouncements on my beliefs in God to me.

The dour situation that OotV paints of Fresno's problems, is, in my opinion, certainly part of the picture,and he does point out some massive and practical hurdles.
I also see lots of people in this Valley working self-lessly in volunteer capacities to make the place better.

Bums that are drunk and reek of urine and beer?
Street people not handicapped but bringing on wheelchairs loaded with bags of junk to haul to a recycling center?
Will the light-rail have to wait 5 minutes while some old bum hauls on 15 big trash bags of cans dripping soda and beer to recycle?
Don't forget the bums with holes in their pants so the world can see their anatomy.

I'm sure that there are meetings open to the public every so often to bring that up, just don't know when or where

Andy, you are correct, I did not mention the issue of airquality and traffic.

I think you have a point in it, -but how to convey this as being a real factor?

traffic:
(literally, so many cars on the road, that you cannot get from point a to point b in a reasonable ammount of time.

-Having recently gone home for my yearly visit (which puts me on the roads of NY, NJ, Pa. (and even Conn and Md. if I cared too,)
--Traffic out here is nothing like traffic back home...
I daresay, on mornings when I'd travel down from the northcountry, (the hills, with Jethro and Pa sitting (literally) on the porch (holding my spot,) --I'd sometimes blow off the train, -just to have the freedom to go elsewhere.
---Was Mass Transit there and readable? Yes. (The train station was five minutes from my front door, and all I had to do was sit on the thing for an hour and a half and I was, right next to the greatest city in the world, -----THEN a ferry ride, (if I felt like it,) or a PATH ride (another ten minutes...)
Then whatever subways I wanted...
-But literally, I could be anywhere in the city to work (inside) of two and a half hours travel time, ---most of the train time could be spend snoozin' away, or reading...
(Reason to take the train (200.00 per month (give or take,) for an unlimited pass on any train headed to my neck of the woods: I could bag 21.00 an hour just doing a 'temp gig,' in an office, (AND) be in Manhattan... (which is a town I truly love.)

-Reason to NOT take the train?
Sometimes I wanted to stay later, and if I missed the last 'express train,' my train ride literally would take almost three hours to get home (In Jersey, the local trains stop in every town... which can be like, every twenty feet.)

But that's another story (PS: Is there ANY mass transit of any sort, that would facilitate somebody making twice their income by taking said transit system to that town???
(for a reasonable rate and reasonable amount of time?)
Didn't think so.

Traffic can be crippling, ---and if Traffic gets 'that bad,' around here, SURE you'll see a demand for 'light rail.' (Busses don't count, ---ask anyone who travellled from White Plains NY, up to Stamford Conn, -along their major highway, ---where the bus is just as bogged down...)
-So Traffic will call out creative commuting.

-But the question is -to where?

-IS there an area where 'tons of people,' work, ---where they'll all be able to assemble and radiate outward to their homes, -and then walk to their homes from there (like the NY Subway system) ---or, in the 'burbs, -where you take the car to the station, -and the trains and such take it from there?
(Honest question,,, I don't work in a genre where I really am able to transition over to mass transit, -and am not aware of any 'money districts,' or areas of higher income jobs here in Fresno... everybody seems to be kind of 'just making it,' --and the commute is basically fifteen minutes at best, -forty at worst.

Pollution:
--Now, I'm not the brightest bulb on the porch..
-but what IF everybody in Fresno strarted driving a hybrid or an electric car tomorrow. (This will NEVER happen, -they'e too expensive, --unless California does like what Germany did (Mr. Porsche, -creator of the VW, --the people's wagon, -under a joint govt/business project... granted one hell of a horrendous govt...)
--IF
Everybody started driving 'clean vehicles,' tomorrow ---Would it really make air quality better?
-Yes?
Okay, maybe a dumb question, (of course it would...)

BUT:
If Fresno and the valley has air that is actually dictated by what gets farted out of the Bay Area, ---and NoCal? (Like the night I walked out into the parking lot of Riverpark's Starbucks, and it smelled like Woodward Park was burning, (and looked like it...) ---but the fire was hundreds of miles north.
-Would it not be safe to say that a LOT of our air issues are due to areas far from here, -and even if we did 'everything right,' ---we're still breathing their effluence?

Polution part deux:
--Consider this:
-Why do people live here when they know that (what, one in five kids,) are going to be born into lifelong asthmatic conditions?
-We hoping everybody is going to somehow make it into Clovis Schools???

We all have our reasons for staying here, ----but obviously, with the endless stalemate, and stale air, we're all aware of the fact, that we're breathing crud, and it will cause us more physical harm, -than elsewhere.
-Our kids? Same.

I don't wish to be the harbinger of doom, here, folks.
But there is a massive 'denial,' factor needed to live here, ---and it plays beautifully off of the stubborn 'okie' homesteader mindset (which, strangely enough, I happen to admire...)
-yet it has it's own downside:
--we don't have a 'racial interraction,' problem, -we'll just move north and make a whole new Fresno.
--we don't have a 'crime,' problem, --we just move where it's quieter and the ghetto hawk rarely flies, (again, hello N. Fresno.)
--we live four hours from 'all that other stuff,' (meaning 'the golden smog,' of LA, and the 'liberals,' of S.F.)
---This is it's own little world, ---and we're going to make it COMPLETELY like we want.. (we'll bend everything, religion, societal understanding, politics) ---to reflect only what we want to see...

And, despite the horrendous health problems that are looming (nasty air, nasty water, etc,) --we're going to be determined to maintain, and insist that it's not going to happen to 'us.'

(We'll even consider building 'nukes,' when they're verbotten in the rest of the state, (as well as here,) -because money can do 'anything,'
-and we'll completely ignore strides made in other areas of the country to find energy resources from what comes out the arse end of livestock, the results of rotting vegetation, -or venting off of a landfill... (because that's how 'others,' do it, and we don't care how 'others do it.')

Not to go peeing in everybody's wheaties here.
There is a myopia and a sense of this place being somehow completely out of reach of the rest of the world, country, etc.. ---and how the rest of it just doesn't apply to 'here.'
-and I think it's going to spell the death of (more,) thousands.

(Honestly: In this town, a cop pulls over a guy who's been drinking, and the first response is '...How dare that cop oppress me, my rights to drink a few, and go home, ---when all I was going to do was go HOME...'

There is 'Individuality,' and 'Ones Rights Being Lived Out unhindered,'
-but, to a set of eyes from elsewhere?
It just comes across as stubborn obstenant willfull arrogance and pride.

I mean, how do you answer the constant cry 'I got a right to be free, to live my life the way I want, and to do and say whatever I please to whomever I please, However I please, --and who are you (even an officer,) -to hinder that?

I'm sorry, but, as much as I like a lot of Fresnans, -it was made clear years ago, like shortly after I moved here,) that what motivates people to correct something is ONLY how it will affect their own personal interests.
Fresno is not an altruistic and 'others first,' sort of town, -despite it's overwhelming Christian populace. (Which, as a Christian? I find not only embarassing, but a complete moral affont.)

-And the only way that you're going to get Mass Transit (of any sort,) to work?
Is when the population that has money becomes 'one,' of those groups that Blake was referring to, (old, or a kid,)
-or if it makes their life easier, (further conveniences for those who can already afford convenience.)

This is a very very social darwinist town, -NOT even those who have disabilities rate very high as worthy of protection or any special consideration, -It's all about the greatest performance, --and (all too often,) 'second place,' is seen as the first looser.

What it will take for the average Fresnan to suddenly care about 'mass transit,' or 'mass,' anything? (rather than 'butt number one?')

You, know?
Honestly I can't tell ya.
This place is full of people who are endwelled by the Spirit of a Living God who was all about caring for the poor, the sick, the needy, and putting others first...
-and for the most part, they've turned even that relationship around to 'Bless Me, Lord, Bless Me...'
-like a bunch of babies who refuse to progress in their maturity and caring for others past an endless supply of sweetsnacks and 'happymeals.'
--And, to be honest?
If Jesus can't change these folks into genuinely caring for 'life below Hearndon.'
I don't know what else will.

You guys are in for a world of hurt, so's yer kids.
-And if I choose to stay?
Same... (and I was raised in a toxic waste site in 'Jersey.)

Blake, you want a sermon?
Clearly in James it speaks clearly about the judgements against those who 'make meat of the poor,' -and those who refuse to help their brother (and sister,) when we know that they're in need.
--not long ago, you spoke of believing in a God who hands out life and blessing -according to how people act and what they do.

Me?
Well, I see strong evidence of a God who is Graceful, who will bless others despite themselves, -and sees things that aren't (unrighteous and undefendable mankind,) as though they are (righteousness and glory, -attributed to Christ, -given to anyone undeservedly.) -God's choice to be this way, -not mine.

Still, look at what people have done, -and what they continue to do (in Jesus' name,)
to this area, and to the people of this area.

-If you believe in 'just rewards?' -I'd start driving anywhere from here ASAP
-If you believe in 'grace?' ...well, hope that something truly unusual happens in this town and in this valley...

But I'll tell you one thing.
Maybe one of the reasons why folks don't want to pick up a Bible in this town?
Not because they don't want to be 'preached at.' (that's too obvious,)
-It's because they can plainly read it, -and it speaks clearly about those who say one thing, yet do another, -and those who think endlessly of themselves, -and not others.

And what is said? Is not 'God is going to turn Fresno into SanDiego.'

What if this IS the result of all the racism, the hatred, the mysogeny? What if it's not 'judgement,' -but just the logical end result of generations of this sort of thinking, -everybody out for themselves, screw the poor, the sick, the 'messed up,' the homeless, --anything except the best and the brightest.
Maybe, for the sake of all the athiests out there, -this is not God Judging.
Maybe it's just man wiping himself out with his own behaviors and mindset.
---'...But, that's GOOD, it means mankind can straighten this out, -since we created the mess to begin with...'

That sort of faith in human nature and the milk of human kindness is quite touching.
Based upon how society has been (since it started?)
Makes that faith kind of naieve, -if not downright stupid.

Mass transit, fair housing, decent neighborhoods, good schools, promising futures...
So much is on the assumed 'mercy,' of others who are suppose to care.
-And, though everybody is crying out for 'mercy,' --Who, especially around here, is really looking to give it?

Fresno also needs to improve the current mass transit system. I live in NW Fresno in an area that lacks bus service. The nearest stop is rather far and not safely reached on foot. The stop is over 1 and 1/2 miles away. Plus there is an overpass without sidewalk to cross. Frankly that is just not safe to do.
A light rail service would be nice, but first get my side of town bus service.

Solutions of urban planning must come from the real estate development community. There are some green building practices beginning to be seen in the building industry which is very encouraging. Yet the process of urban growth is completely reliant on transportation and it is transportation that dictates growth. The foresight of Caltrans to include light-rail corridors in its new freeway’s construction is very enlightened indeed. Caltrans understands the importance of mass transit corridors in its planning.

One of the frustrations of the building community is that most builders completely ignore the intent of the CEQA regulations (California Environmental Quality Act) that was passed in the early 1970s. Most builders completely ignore or are simply unaware of the regulations and are allowed to build because of arbitrary allowances. It isn’t so much a disgrace of the building industry; rather, the automobile has enabled a status-quo compliance of normalcy to environmental non-sustainability.

Much of LA’s $7billion Metro light-rail transit system uses the old light-rail rights of ways that were terminated during the 50s and 60s. Fresno’s old light-rail system was also built with the help of the Huntington’s, who built much of LA’s transit system. It was FDR’s New Deal that passed Federal legislation making it illegal for a Power Company (Edison Power in LA) to own and operate a transit system. The streetcar systems were replaced by buses and then automobiles.

Fresno has the opportunity to capture the interest of the New Technology Transit industry. And; when a transit system is able to provide point to point and door to door service that is equal in time and comparable to the consumer to an automobile, there will be no social barriers to its ridership. As an example, BART does not discriminate to social or ethnic classes.

JPatrick wrote:
"There is a valid point where the individualism of the car culture has exceeded the positive aspects of individualism and has moved us to societal isolationism wherein our neighbors are met with hostility."

--I have had this thought many times:
That the same people who I may have cussed in my moments of impatience
during driving, if I'd have met them on a walking path, the anger/spewing
would never have happened. Something about the boxing in/ and de-personalization
of being inside a car (the other folks are no longer 'people' but annoyances who don't know how to signal, etc.) really makes you treat people like they are not people.
BUT.......the idea of only meeting people on 'walking paths', no matter how much it really really appeals to me? seems very hippy-dippy and un-real-world-ish(what a shame---definately not enough to convince the non hippy-dippy to join in changing the world).
hmmmm.
then, there's the quote from O.oft.V.
--
"'Mass Transit,' of any sort is correctly seen as transportation for the poor."

Thing is, even if it was never ever used by the rich and powerful.....it could be used by.....the young and the elderly [yup, also two groups that don't get a lot in the political respect dept., but still]

In Europe, public transport is used by a great cross-section of folks....yeah, yeah,
their history and culture is different(but not by so much).....and many of their cities were developed PRE_AUTOMOBILE.....like....San Francisco! and....Many Areas of the East Coast.

Certainly , we have dug ourselves quite the hole here in Fresburg, with our whole town plan being dictated either by the assumptions of the Hungry Automobile Culture or by simple graft and criminality....but, our big sister to the south (and seeming hero? no way!....well...actions speak louder than words...) Los Angeles (also big in the graft/criminality/ and being designed by King Car Culture) has started,developed, expanded....a SUBWAY system(for like...15 years approx?).

We need to recognize the dangers of unplanned/random development ('sprawl') and
systematically, clinically....try and .......how's this? :
Make a Better World.
---or just learn to enjoy....cultural blandness, isolation from community, more and more pollution, lost money to inefficient infrastructure, ....and just plain uninspiring ugliness.....oh yeah, and how many NEW CREATIVE SOULS and YOUNG ENTREPRENEURS wish to start up their companies where it is bland and yucky?
There's MONEY and futures to be made in towns that are SWINGIN'---let's be one of them there ones.
----amen, and now turn to hymn number 325 ......

Mykel, your mention of George Monbiot where “he thinks that car culture has contributed to an increase in individualism and fewer social interactions between members of different socioeconomic classes."

There is a valid point where the individualism of the car culture has exceeded the positive aspects of individualism and has moved us to societal isolationism wherein our neighbors are met with hostility.

When people criticize something they know absolutely nothing about it causes the knowledgeable reader frustration. It is the hope of this author to inform the other posters on this blog that Fresno’s need for a transit system in its growth is being addressed and the process is moving forward with great success. It is also the intent of this author to inform the reader there are many considerations that have been acknowledged in the pursuit of building a privatized light-rail system.

OB, the point of addressing the rude attitude of your post does not justify an answer; however, there may be questions that other readers might consider as valid questions.

"How long has there been a lightrail board?"
There is no “light-rail board”.

"How much has been spent on pay, benifits and studies?"
There is Measure C money that was voted in by the voters of Fresno County which allocates $3million for a PTIS (Public Transportation and Infrastructure Study). The general scope of study is concentrating on the bus system because the status-quo of transit for Fresno is low cost public transportation implementation.

"How many diffrent studies have there been?"
When? Recently, over the past 3 years, there have been several studies. There are several agencies that handle local transportation issues: Caltrans, City of Fresno and COG.

"Why has not one piece of rail been laid yet?"
There is no money available to build a light-rail system anywhere in the Valley. The traditional method of building a “new starts” mass transit system is by using Federal Transportation funds. The list of applicants to receive Federal transportation funds consist of over 200 cities, Fresno is not even on the list. To fund the list of applicants that have already applied would take over 50 years.

The cheapest of light-rail transit systems is of the type being built in San Jose. That at grade light-rail system costs $35 to $70million per mile.

Fresno’s public transportation officials are focused on expanding the bus system.

"It's all about someone getting a check."
When people participate in the natural precession of the area’s growth, their effort can be work and the work can be payable with a paycheck.

It is not a workable idea for Fresno
.
It is just an idea pushed so people can sit on a board paid for by taxpayers and collect a check for spending money to study the issue.

Answer these questions.

How long has there been a lightrail board?

How much has been spent on pay, benifits and studies?

How many diffrent studies have there been?

Why has not one piece of rail been laid yet?

It's all about someone getting a check.

They don't care about lightrail and I doubt if ever built board members would ride on it.

Hey Eric,
You left out congestion as a reason for mass transit in Fresno. No, it is not a problem yet but you only have to look at Los Angeles and realize it is coming. A roadway full of Priuses bumper to bumper is still congestion. Even Los Angeles is putting in mass transit. Fresno's mindset is probably more like LA's then Portland's (who have a terrible congestion by the way)and so hopefully we can learn from them. Mass transit will make the roads less congested which could help the rich vote for it if only so they can drive on a less crowded freeway while the rest of us take transit.
We also have bad air quality that doesn't care if you are rich or poor if you are in the valley. That may spur a push towards mas transit where it may have not in another situation.
Oil is $100 a barrel and only increasing. It will be while before everybody has a Prius or the like. Busses become more of an option when gas prices increase.

And realizing: -whoah, a lot's changed.

And again? A lot has not...

'Cars,' are always going to be a necessity and a way of life.
The only thing to really replace a 'car,' completely? A mass transit system that can completely cover wherever a person wants to go, (in nearly all facets,)
--or--
a layout of town that enables a person to do their local business close to home so that mass transit isn't even necessary.

I don't see Fresno making that jump anytime in the near future...

IF mass transit is going to really fly?
In this town?

It's going to have to be in areas where people with money are going to see some benefit and desire to use it, ---but only as a sort of gesture of good will or a kind of 'I'm giving back to the environment,' sort of thing. (Like shopping at Trader Joes and using a re-usable sack.

In other words, -Mass Transit is going to have to catch on and become popular exactly the same way 'cars,' were initially, and be seen as desirable by the community that individuals want to be a part of/impress.

-And I don't see that happening any time soon.

-What might happen sooner?
Stuff like the Prius, hybrid cars, cars that still allow a person to be the captain of their own destiny, er, mobility, ---yet be considered enviro-hip among others.
---Make something like this 'affordable,' --and you solve the problem.
--Will you have sprawl and the need for better and more advanced roads? Sure... -but there is no way to really stop that, nor choke that off effectively without crippling the further advantages that having roads provide. (sorta like: if you want an omlette, you need to break a few eggs.)

Like it or not, (heck, just read the stuff by Orange Bear elsewhere on the site, -no, I don't think this person is the epitome of 'fresno thought,' --but still, they do provide the mindset of a significant amount of people, (some in pretty high places too.)

'Mass Transit,' of any sort is correctly seen as transportation for the poor.
There is no situation, (such as the MetroArea (NYC) and surrounds, where a person gets on a train, and rides to a place that will give them three times the salary that they'd normally get by working 'local.' (Which is actually the case in NYC vs. surrounding areas.

So, Mass Transit, will be seen the same way it was seen by the planners who were preserving LongIsland as a place for the wealthy and well to do, (vs. urbanites,) --(which they did by making the bridges over the roadways so low that the busses could not fit under them (voila! NO busses means no people who can afford only a bus...)

It's stuff like that.
Mass transit, in this town is seen as primarily transit for the poor.
And Fresno, to be blunt, could care less about the poor.
It is one of the greatest divides (socially and in real life situations,) that I've ever seen, -it's as if the poor (Downtown, MidTown, etc.) are completely not even seen by those of wealthier areas.

So why would the city 'fathers,' put any money into anything for a crossection of the city that they have (essentially,) nothing to do with, and will see as (only,) an encouragement for the poor to be so...
(IT's like an extension of the flawed logic '...feed the homeless, all you are doing is supporting them in their misery, and 'ADDING,' to 'Facilitating,' their addiction, missuse, 'entrapment,' of being on the dole...
-The same mindset looks at a person who wants to build mass transit (which will be used by the poor,) as 'just facilitating their poorness, -because they won't have to get a car, get insurance, and be in a higher financial bracket...

I see the 'goodwill,' gesture of the wealthy caring for the poor, -or the average Fresnan caring for the underpriviliged as passing at best (throw a turkey dinner at Chrismas and Thanksgiving, -take a few heartwarming shots of a local celeb. with a big eyed kid chewing on some stuffing, --and the 'compassion,' meter is pegged and the visual image satiated.

Unless you can find some way to convince rich folks that 'mass transit,' is worthwhile, and cool?, (and not facilitating 'poverty,')
it will always stay stunted.
Best you're going to get, is some tie in from wealthy areas to areas that they may WANT to go to (malls, college, etc.)
-but again, even then, it will never replace the deluxe Mercedes Benz Family Truckster.

"It's a different kettle of fish to just 'plop down,' a light-rail here in Fresno.

-1. Folks tend to see life here as '...who cares what they're doing in Portland, they're a bunch of liberal hippies (etc. etc.) up there.'"
-Out of the Void

Funny you should mention that. Take a look at this, from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_automobile_on_societies

"George Monbiot speculates that widespread car culture has shifted voter's preference to the right of the political spectrum.[7] He thinks that car culture has contributed to an increase in individualism and fewer social interactions between members of different socioeconomic classes."

All I have to say is invest in a lightrail after your'e sure that people will ride it and that people go to that area. Forget the street cars if it's air pollution switch to metro buses or electric. The thing is first to build a home for people to live then bring in retail, commercial, businesses, and parks all the typical things you would find in downtown and once you seen what a success it has been then start to plan and build phases for the lightrail or monorail system you want to build because look were stated right now as the worst downtown; we need to fix that by bringing more development to downtown and that side of town.

you should play simcity
I first played it a little bit around 1990 then later I played SimCity 2000 and really got in to SimCity3000... I've thought that city planners should play this game and be really good at it, before they mess with a real city. hehe
Simcity really did not have street cars, but it did have a subway, rail and bus lines.

Actually, the new simcity, SimCity 4: Rush Hour, is fairly realistic, and is being used in many classrooms as a teaching tool on the basics of how a city is run. Which in my opinion is a good thing. More of the educated voters would be rather nice...

Personally, I'd have to say monorail looks like the way to go. It seems to run at about the same price initially (sometimes less, sometimes slightly more) as a good light rail system. Although, many monorail systems are run by private companies, as they have the ability to turn a decent profit. Perhaps an option here?

Monorail avoids a ton of problems. Here's some of reasons I could see going for the monorail system in Fresno...

-Monorail is elevated (with a small footprint)
Worst part about light rail is your transit is usually at ground level, and is now only as good as your traffic congestion. And even if light rail helps Fresno's obvious congestion problem, it ain't gonna solve it. I'd rather drive to work in 20 minutes, than be stuck on a streetcar with a bunch of people in traffic for 20 minutes. Not to mention, I've seen some nasty accidents with light rail.

-Cost
Cost would initially be the same as a regular light rail, but chances on turning a profit seem higher. Also, operating costs tend to be lower. And it is obviously less than a subway system.

-Reliability
Get to know you're good friend Google. Monorails have one of the most stellar records in any form of transit. Whichbrings me to my next point:

-Safety
Chance of a derailment is slim to none. Practically impossible simply due to the nature of it.

-Construction Time
Is generally damned fast. The monorail in Las Vegas was complete in 7 months. The idea is kinda like panel houses... everything pre-made... just a matter of putting together the puzzle.

Seems the past initiatives had died out...
Here's the route that was planned: http://www.skytrain.org/map.html
The core site being: http://www.skytrain.org

Just a few thoughts on the matter...

'...frustration of presenting a well thought plan time and again, and being looked at like you don't exist...'
Yup, that sucks.

(...but ya know Patrick?
I'm hearing that there are some thickheaded folks in Fresno...)
---That's where having a thicker head comes in handy, (It takes somebody who was raised speaking the language to tell them exactly WHAT they can do with their selective deafness disorder in a way that is, um, direct...)

That things are on the threshold of some major lettuce to make the trainset come true?
-Sweeet!

(I know you've been wrenching on this beast for some time, it's nice to see it finally getting close to having some tracktime.)

-And by the looks of der Hyphenator 'getting it,'
--and Orcaoid thinking that the ideas are brilliant?
--That means that the stuff you and Dennis have been brewing is starting to make sense to folks...

I like that these ideas are beginning to take root.

--I'd ask you 'where you'd throw the thing,'
---but to be honest?
-knowing that you know how to build and drive the sucker, (as well as plan it out,) down to the paint-job,
-it's kind of like asking the guy who can fix the nuclear reactor bits of an aircraft carrier what color shirt he's wearing, and his astrological sign...

I know you have other stuff on your plate, -and a lot to chew.

I'm just glad to hear that things are coming to a point of there being an actual object to ride, lean, or piss on not too far down the line.
(The last option? If electrified? probably not a great idea.)

Now...
Somebody go throw a pebble on Dennis' window,
and VallyIsForLovers STILL is holding out on us...

-Let me know about the races...
(I'm assuming the speakers have been built and you're playing 'InaGaddaDavida' at top volume...
(please tell me you're not hooked on country like yer daughter... '...one more song about pickups, dogs, horses, farms and W?,
-and I'm gonna go streakin' during 'Big Hat Day' and give'm your name when they bust me...)

Again, very good news that this may pay off.

-Oh yeah, and Orcaoid...
-How come it is that, even though the X wing fighters in StarWars looked cool, -the Empires (Tie-Fighters,) ---SOUNDED so much cooler? I mean, whats up with that? I mean, Lucas is a car guy... at least make the goodguys rides sound like they got some horsepressure going on there,,, not like a bunch of chevettes crossed with sewing machines...

How to make the transit project happen? Money. Forest City has the budget for a large thermos of cool-aid that they have been distributing to the City of Fresno. Not that I’m opposed to a Forest City development, it’s just that the City has a way of distancing themselves from anything else Downtown.

The www.centraltransit.com Fresno project (vague on the website due to proprietary issues) is designed specifically for Fresno’s unique transportation situation. For those who have heard the saying: “someday somebody will do something”? Regarding transportation and the ease of mobility for connectivity, this project purposely is designed to reach the population for Central California with the intent to be an alternative mode of transportation from the automobile and comply with environmental and social concerns for the future.

The Aug 23rd City of Fresno meeting with John Ruiz talking about the City’s plans was the usual non-visionary platitudes of the status-quo, except for the green-belt parkway along the Union Pacific tracks.

It is extremely difficult; to have proposed a very large scale project that literally solves vital issues for Fresno, and to continually be ignored. Money rules development; it is understandable the City recognizes that without a substantial bank account nothing can be accomplished. However, the Regional Transportation Plan was recently attacked by the State Attorney General for not allocating environmental provisions in the 30 year transportation plan. The personal difficulty for me is to have spent the past 10 years on developing a realistic and concise plan that specifically addresses and resolves these concerns: and have the City respond in a blank face manner as though I don’t exist.

This, is why there is a bitterness towards the Forest City project. The property that the City has arranged for Forest City makes more sense to establish a large scale transit hub to serve as a commerce center. The council people don’t care to hear about anything other than the Forest City project.

For me to talk about all of the things happening behind the scenes would only seem like BS to most folks so, to report on the financial aspects might appear as boasting. None the less, the project is close to funding with a staggeringly large amount of money. The large real estate investment group interested in this Fresno project sees and understands that the reach of this project goes beyond Central California. My personal interest is to see the project begin due to the environmental gain for Fresno and the Valley. It is noteworthy to say that the investment group also understands that the environmental gain bodes well for the financial aspects of its real estate development interests for replicating this model in other areas as well.

not at all a gamer.

when I heard of the terminology for neutering horses?
I figured: well this person refuses to identify themselves as neither male or female
-and seems to enjoy their anonymity (and androgeny.)

Well, that and orchids.
Beyond that?
No clue.

(though I've heard of warcraft, I've never played it, nor had the interest, I'm pre-tech in terms of amusements and such (darn near luddite.)

-but if it's your thing, good. Everyone needs a hobby.)

Real life is far more interesting to me.

-The other link?
Not much one for openning files I don't know.

-So yah, your placement of mass transit would be?

orcoid or orcaoid? I'm not into horses, so I would never have heard of that, but if you're a gamer, try this:
http://www.ptepid.org/code/orc/ or

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=Orcoid

as for me:
alien orchid + human = Orcadian hybrid = orcaoid

personally?
1. I find it pretty excellent that Andy is giving credit where credit is due. (That's a rare thing.) -but then again, he's a stand up guy.

2. Both contributors who Andy cited (D. Manning. J.P. Sweeney,) have written heavily on both of (their,) versions of mass transit. (so, I don't know if you've been asleep, -but it's been both here and on MindHerd for quite some time.)

3. Having had similar conversations with Sweeney, I too was shown the median strips on the freeways and it became crystal clear why they were there, ----as well as was told that they were designed (a generation ago,) -for said-such tech.

4. Though Andy's ideas are brilliant?
-My openning the doors to get anyone to contribute their plans for light/mono (whatever,) rail was because Even Patrick and Dennis have never been given a '...okay, you got whatever you want, -where would you put this thing...?'
--And, I don't know if they've been asked such a direct 'fer-instance,' sort of question...
---Now that we've established the chromosomal habits of 2901, --and quelled your own concerns about this being converted into a dating site?
---I'd still like to see where the varying contributers would want dedicated mass transit (of any ilk,) to go,
-Even you Orcaoid, ----though I do recall some earlier stuff about the town being a spaceport of something.

-Still havn't heard from Ms. Dani, nor yourself, nor Patrick nor Dennis...

Reason for asking this question (other than the fact that I thoroughly enjoy being a pain in the ass sometimes? ...it's a military thing, -my old man was a Marine Buck Seargant, -loves to make folks think...)

--I think a serious 'sounding,' of where the rails should go ---may reveal shifting in the population that wants mass transit (vs. those who 'need it,') ---different in terms of funding, AND where the society is shifting to.

-Also just wondering if the old gophers who laid this town out, ---and planned it back in the day? Were as smart as they thought they were. (My gut? they were so, and even more than they realized...)

-So, yeah, I see an opportunity for a lot more brilliance (or bullshit,)
-so baffle or dazzle me, ---but I still want to know what some of these other guns have to say.

-Orcoid (...which I was told is another word for 'gelding,' ---is that true? did you know that??? (not saying anything, just telling you what was told to me,, -but then again, you're into orchids, (hey, either situation is none of my nevermind,)

-Where, (spaceships and such aside,) ---would you throw down tracks, rails, pillars, slip-n-slides, (whatever,) --primary to secondary tier development, -and who rides (and why?)

-stage is yours.

we're missing?

how do we make this all happen?

were any of you invited to the Aug 23rd presentation at the Saroyan?

what did you think?

anyway, can we thank you for reminding us of that fact?
also, how come no one has brought out that fact until now, or was I asleep at the wheel?

whats up with that? is it a secret meant only for those in the business?

The median on the freeways are set aside for light rail by law so that part of the solution is solved as well. Some forward thinking by someone at CalTrans and Sacramento and federal government.
As far as genius I stole most of the ideas from various sources and probably mostly from Patrick Sweeney and Dennis manning. They are the transit gurus for the Central Valley.
I do know a good idea when I see it though.

in one feel swoop, you solved 6 problems that would have plagued this project

Down 41 and the 168

I would put the first stage of the light rail down Freeway 41 and the next stage down 168 with Transit Oriented Development at the various stations to help defray the cost of the light trail system and to provide built in ridership. These TODs would be housing, office and retail at varying degrees at each of the stations along the route. The two routes would get the most people into downtown for work or play and visa versa. As the ridership builds it would be time for the cross town lines to go in such as Herndon.

1) saved traffic lanes from being used, thus lessening any vocal opposition from addicted, car-crazy Californians
2) saved island medians from being used, thus letting a little greenspace live on in Fresno
3) save on costs for right-of-way easements
4) saved time from opposition of all the NIMBY's
5) with concrete guard-rail siding, saves lives of all those idiots that would try to beat rail crossings just before the guardrail comes down
6) total cost would be more reasonable

"what? are you getting hit on, or something?"

Boy, i hope not!!!

Another quick fact about press2901: Likes the ladies, thats it, just wanted that out there!

In fact i enjoy quite moonlit walks on the beach. I'm great with kids. etc. etc....

Just messing with ya Orca. Lighten up a bit.

--You so got yer undies in a bundle over nothing...

The 'anything i want,' remark?

-the scenario of 'if you had any money you wanted, -as well as the technical capabilities covered, (WHAT TECH,) light rail, monorail, etc.) ---would you put and where, skys the limit, just say what, where, and why, ---and where you'd put a secondary system (etc.)
---the 'anything you want? comment -purely the hypothetical positioning and building of mass transit.

'that 2901 is a guy,'

---Read the invite:
I saw some of the initial conversation taking place regarding 'where would you put such tech,' ---and wanted to invite specific folks to put their input in, --because I know that they got some great ideas in it. ----

Inviting 'Valley is For Lovers,' (F) I threw in the statement 'lets get a girl in here too (as they're smarter,)
----then realized that (not knowing who 2901 is,)
I couched the comment with ' unless 2901 is female as well,' (not looking to exclude the complement extended to any ladies in the room...)

---turns out,
not only is he not a woman, -but he's NO lady either...

Please feel free to put your two (or twenty,) cents in (the list was far from exclusive,
---just folks off of the top of my head who I knew had expressed interest in the subject before and who had good dialogue on it,
--yourself included.)

-As to whether you are male or female?
I have never known. I've stopped wondering.

(You've maintained 'enigma' status for as long as I've known you on line,
---even to the extent of not introducing yourself back when I've written you (privately,) to introduce myself, (Some of your writing is quite good, and thought a nice friendship could come about... oh well.)

---choosing the 'mystery person,' road seems to be your flair...
Suit yourself.

-But the question '...you got all the money you need, you got the tech, ---what form of mass transit would you put where, why, who rides, ---and where would you put in secondary structures (etc.)

-Hope this clears that up, (you hazy character, you.)

[quote]press2901

Anything i want?

Just a real quick fact about press2901: I'm a guy, thats it, just wanted that out there.[/quote]

what? are you getting hit on, or something?

Just a real quick fact about FresnoFamous, if people want to make this a chatroom, start another thread or PM them???

Computers are not perfect but neither are human drivers which is why I would prefer a computer driven Ultra Light Rail, not, to mention the cost savings for the taxpayer on salary and benefits. I am usually for keeping people working rather then replaced by a machine but I will make an exception in this case because we need to save our air and lungs by getting a light rail approved by the voters and the more inexpensive it is the better to convince the voter.
What I don't like about the 99 is all the trucks that compete for the same space as the autos. The 99 has 19 to 27 % of its traffic are trucks where the state average is only 9%. It is a very well used freeway that was never upgraded to an interstate status like it should have by the federal government a long time a go.

---Actually?

I've heard both 99 and 41 described as 'blood alley,'

-Though I tease (mercilessly, endlessly, just to remain sane,) that there are no seasons out here?

-The Fog part of the two that do exist?
'Hot and Fog,' is absolutely brutal. (pileups of 40+ cars every once in a while?

-Home we have conditions that make the roads unusable 'Black Ice,' (which you really can't see, unless you just know what roadway looks like with a thin layer of ice from the mist,
-rime ice, (sort of the same, just with salt-water,
-rain-slick ice, (which means, all the salt got washed off, the temp dipped, the ground froze, -and you're completely out of control.

PS: I happen to enjoy driving in winter weather, (totally love it,) ---but I do have a screw loose, and tend to drive rather large and beastly pieces of equip. (4x4 is even more fun.) ---but we go Slooooooooww. (none of this 80mph down the freeway when you can't even see your own steering wheel.)

Then?
When travelling E or W (particularly when you live W of your destination --you head E into the sun, (into the glare intensified by the salt/white smear on the windshield,) ---and then the glare going home as you drive back West...

(why say this?)
---Hazardous driving conditions such as dropping a ton of people per second down a narrow corridor (like 41,) ---then mix in fog? Means
ANY method of travel into work is a better idea.

(I know it's not year round, -but it is a very narrow chute to drive, -and there is a ton of traffic on it already.)

Our rail systems back home (though they are far from perfect,) -can track trains, -as well as (usually,) give photo recon of every length of track, (I still want a human in there driving the thing, -computers aren't perfect,)

---but a sequestered railline (or El Line) (short for elevated, -but it could be the Spanish rail line too, hey, lets not be greedy...)
---That is out of the way of traffic, running full trains from outlying areas and towns into 'town?' -way safer

-so folks don't have to be smacking into each other 'packed like lemmings into shiney metal boxes,'
(thank you Mr. Sumner...)

Salt Lake put in the light rail for the Winter Olympics if I remember correctly. The entire city and region is in a narrow valley so the traffic was getting horrendous as there was really not much room to sprawl except north or south along the valley. This allowed the athletes and spectators to get around easier during their three weeks there.
Other then the conservatism of the regions there maybe too much difference between Fresno and Salt Lake: We can sprawl any direction ( not saying it is a good thing) and they had the Olympics to spur them forward thinking. We don't have the terrible traffic ( yet) but we do have the bad air quality. The poor air quality in conjunction with the ever increasing gas prices maybe what can spur Fresno and its surrounding valley forward thinking as well.

I like the 'sewing areas together thing, ---and seeing the rail as a system to bring 'sleeper,' or 'bedroom,' communities closer, (also that there are two distinct systems an inter and an intra... THAT works really well in other areas too...

I've seen this work tremendously well (in Philadelphia, for example,) -where the traffic is horrendous, ---they have the PATH trains there, --but they run from downtown inner city out to (what used to be,) the middle of nowhere in S. Jersey, (but within housing range from Philly,) ----those areas grew up beautifully, (and though Phila has subways? It's nothing like NYC's.
---The traffic problem (over there,) is absolutely horrendous in all highways heading into the city, btw, ---and it's very very spread out as well...

(they do a lot of work with trains and busses too,)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the other western city (besides Portland) that has a very successful light rail system. I have spent the past two months here on temporary assignment and have found the light rail to be a great source of transportation. I'm talking about Salt Lake City. I have to say, I was as surprised by this city as many of you probably are to hear me talk about it. But it's really turning into a progressive city, and should be another model for Fresno to look at. I know, there's a religious group that many people tend to associate this city with. And I think that many people tend to think of that group as being on the conservative, non-progressive side of the spectrum. But really, the city's done a great job, and while Salt Lake doesn't really come close to Portland, it goes to show you that a progressive transportation system can be successfully implemented in a conservative-leaning, medium size city. Street cars are nice, but we really need a way for people to get around the city, not just between two neighborhoods that are right next to eachother.

Just a real quick fact about press2901: I'm a guy, thats it, just wanted that out there.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Wow, to be quite honest I've never given much thought to a route for mass transit. The thought of following freeways does seem like the logical approach. But i would add a loop that connected downtown, Tower, Herndon (the town), Riverpark, Clovis, Francher Creek, then back into downtown. These areas already have a strong residential and retail base that could help with ridership. Adding stations along that route would allow for TOD.

I also believe TOD would help defray some of the cost, and even though we are already being taxed for some of the money, I believe adding to the sales tax could help pay for the rest. Or whatever your overly stuffed pockets didn't cover.

Where would i go next? I would add lines to Madera and Sanger, especially Sanger, as it seems to be becoming a sleeper community of Fresno.

As for how i would sell it to the public. I guess the best selling point would be the impact on our air. Its no secret that our air is bad, so it wouldn't be hard convincing most people on the benefits of something that doesn't spew out smoke. I would imagine convenience would play a major role for a lot of people too. The amount of stops or stations is paramount to its convenience, too many and it's no better than the bus, not enough and you would have to walk to far to catch it.

I also would still put in a streetcar system in the downtown area. Just for look and ease of travel in such a tight area.

One last thing, on the light rail, it would be elevated off the ground, hopefully keeping people from tagging it. I wasn't sure if this was assumed or not.

*note: i use the words light rail, that doesn't mean thats necessarily what i want, it's just a term I'm familiar with. It could be any modern mode of travel.

Brutal, excellent... I love it...

okay, who's next?

I would put the first stage of the light rail down Freeway 41 and the next stage down 168 with Transit Oriented Development at the various stations to help defray the cost of the light trail system and to provide built in ridership. These TODs would be housing, office and retail at varying degrees at each of the stations along the route. The two routes would get the most people into downtown for work or play and visa versa. As the ridership builds it would be time for the cross town lines to go in such as Herndon.
It has to be the new Ultra Light Rail with its computer based technology so drivers are not necessary and therefore a lot of cost savings there. The direct to destination makes it faster and more user friendly and help close the advantage that autos have over mass transit ( more direct control)
It will help prevent future congestion, the TODs will encourage higher densities and less sprawl, the population that cannot or does not want to drive (elderly, medically handicapped, children, the poor and environmentalists) as well as less pollutants into our air. The indirect effects: less accidents, less maintenance of autos, less insurance and car payments, more one car families and less parking hassles.
With TODs helping defray the cost and the those who do prefer to drive or have to ( delivery trucks) can still have that option, just less competition for the road from those who now take light rail you maybe able to persuade the voters. It may be hard to reach a two thirds majority. It did happen for both Measure Cs and the Zoo proposal without any private contribution like the TODs would provide.

...Well, yep, it would be cool to see something like this take off and be a 'risk free,' thing in terms of finances used... But, yeah, I think others who would support it should be approached and (genuine, sincere,) reasons for it would be a great way to deal with skeptics...

(And what to my wandering eyes doth appear? JPatrick... (talk about light rail, and you got either JPatrick or Manning keeping a keen eye out..)

Okay, the three of yuhs.

(Not sure if Manning lurks Fresno Famous, he's more of the MindHerd type.)

Just for hoots and hollers:

Lets just say the bunch of you ('2901' -this can be your own gut opinion,
-I realize you're not speaking for anybody, nor culpable in the great schemes of life or streetcars,
----this is just three guys, (maybe 4 if we can find Dennis,) Bench Racing...

-Make it 5, I want Anti-in on this too...
6, we need us a girl who is way smarter than the rest of the room, (and a heckuva lot prettier... -um, that is unless 2901 is of the femenine persuasion, (then you've both got the rest of the room beat,)
---somebody go grab Valley is For Lovers...)

Lets just say you had all the money you needed, had the full support of whomever you had to get, -and could put (whatever your method of transport is,) --Wherever you wanted,
-but there