Transit needs density. Density needs transit (to avoid horrendous congestion). They're like two peas in a pod.

The last time I checked, neither Visalia nor Tulare had any activity centers of substantial density (of people).

And until it's more cost-effective for people to ride the transit then drive (assuming they have cars), then this will be a complete waste of money.

Not to say it shouldn't be planned for. I know that there are some current efforts to preserve the farmland between Visalia and Tulare, and a transit corridor linking the two communities would be fabulous if it linked two mixed-use centers of very high density. Like upwards of 20 units and acre and beyond.

Planning for new transportation systems has to be done concurrently with land use planning. Again, two peas in a pod.

San Francisco
& the millions of tourists
that use those old cable cars

I prefer BART

;-)

The trolley problem has been seen all over the world. For instance, France and Vienna sold their old trolleys quite cheap to countries such as Slovakia or Romania. For these countries the trolleys looked as if they were state of the art. So one country's garbage, another country's treasure.

For me, I prefer buses. They are more comfortable.

Rail should make public commuting faster. In Japan, it is impossible to travell far without the rail.

I think bus will be better than rail. Just my personal preference though.

Light rail will make travelling more convenient.

jpatrick said:

The Air Resource Board won’t let officials bring back the horse and buggys: they are currently working to eliminate dairies because the cows pass too much gas.

then we should find a way to develop all that gas into bio-fuels, power-up our buses thusly with inexpensive fuel, take on a more regional character, then we can change the name of FAX to Fresno Area Regional Transportation System
ok, so I'm a 12 y.o., hehehehe ;-)

jpatrick said:

Regarding a contest for the World of Tomorrow; we need to focus on Our World Today and not as a contest.

my point is that our local official lug-heads can't be trusted to understand what "new technology" means, so they need an "expert" to do that for them, spell it out, integrate the future with the past, like I.M. Pei or Paolo Soleri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.M._Pei & http://www.arcosanti.org/

jpatrick said:

The changes that should have been taking place over the past 30 to 40 years haven’t taken place.

when Victor Gruen designed Fulton Mall, he expected a ring freeway around it, to channel traffic to & fro, something that didn't happen until Measure C, about 10 years ago
http://www.co.fresno.ca.us/4510/tourism/Fulton%20Mall/FultonIndex.htm

this is what he envisioned: http://www.fultonstreet.org/

jpatrick said:

It is normal procedure to use a bond issue to finance a municipal project. Only having paid on Measure C for a short period of time doesn’t really matter. This bond can be used as collateral since it is guaranteed income.

then we should make it a BIG Prize, to get international attention

jpatrick said:

The FAA will always recognize Fresno as FAT.

they should have kept Hammer Field (HF)

The Air Resource Board won’t let officials bring back the horse and buggys: they are currently working to eliminate dairies because the cows pass too much gas.

Regarding a contest for the World of Tomorrow; we need to focus on Our World Today and not as a contest. The changes that should have been taking place over the past 30 to 40 years haven’t taken place. The proof is to simply look at the new Mustangs; they are nearly identical to the ’71 to ’73 models, in terms of horsepower and fuel mileage options also nearly identical. The only changes are primarily in the safety options of having airbags.

Our society needs to make some serious transportation changes.

It is normal procedure to use a bond issue to finance a municipal project. Only having paid on Measure C for a short period of time doesn’t really matter. This bond can be used as collateral since it is guaranteed income.

The FAA will always recognize Fresno as FAT.

Since you mention VTOLs, you might like this; Mr. Shapery’s project is currently being pursued by NASA engineers: http://www.shaperyenterprises.com/vtol.htm Mr. Shapery is also a huge proponent of Maglev technology for a system from San Diego to LA. http://sdlamaglev.org/index.htm

next thing you know, they'll come up with the bright idea to clean our air, by bringing back the "horse & buggy"

jpatrick said:

And that antique streetcar thing that is being talked about? With the horrendous costs of building that thing and all of those wires? What an embarrassment to Fresno that its officials would even propose to build a system that uses 125 year old technology

all that would be fine & good, if that old system were still running, I guess "Old Fresno" would have its charm back, if we were still in the 1940's

jpatrick said:

since Fresno’s voters elected a special fund in Measure C that specifically say to use "New Technology."

so the voters are more advanced than their elected officials? I say that we vote for next, an "innovative transport systems city", where a special district bounded by FYI to Chandler to Sierra Sky Park is created, the so-called "Fresno Triangle", were special lanes & landing ports will be created for flying cars, helicopters, VSTOL, experimental rockets & spacecraft in the air. this special district would have tax-credits for any space-age company that sets up shop here & tests & develops future tech vehicles, we should also save some of the money for an "X-Prize" & a "Y-Prize" for the 1st person that builds a reliable flying car & the other for a flying bus capable of traveling to Yosemite, Sequoia & Kings Canyon & back
and on on the ground, a light rail system that hugs the freeways with a grand central station where 99 & 41 meet. so that we take care of both land-based & air-worthy vehicles at the same time

jpatrick said:

What kind of elected official pushes to misappropriate “New Tech” money with the argument: “It’s new to Fresno.” That trolley is not new to Fresno, it uses the exact same technology as the one built in the early 1900s.

what kind? why lug-heads, I'd hate to ask how old these people are, but they must avg about 65 or 70 y.o.? nostalgia is fine for remembering the past & preserving what we still have left, but to recreate it, we need Disneyland or "old Fresnoland" for them, we want "World of Tomorrow" or "Futureland" for real people, with real needs

jpatrick said:

Furthermore, Fresno is the ONLY community in the Nation to vote in special funds strictly for New Technology Transit.

WOW!!! ahead of the curve once again, another Fresno First!!!

jpatrick said:

Where are these funds now? We’ve been paying ½ cents since July 1 and there is no direction on how this New Technology Transit system is going to be used except for certain officials that are trying to burn the voters for a novelty antique toy that isn’t a transit system

1/2 cent since July, ain't much, I'd like to see City Hall take what money has been raised & have an international competition for this "world of tomorrow", with an integrated transport system, solar & bio-energy systems, underground housing & hi-tech industrial parks for idea, R & D & manufacturing centers

oh & change the name of FYI to FYB (Fresno Yosemite & Beyond)

The Fresno Area Express runs with a budget. In regards to comparing FAX to other transit systems throughout the country it is among the best operated systems in the country. FAX looses 73 cents per dollar, or in other words it collects a 27 cent farebox recovery.

The reason the bus doesn’t run at night is because it is not cost effective. Buses are not the same as other transit systems and in this car culture buses are not much more than an extension of a social welfare program. There are not social class barriers on BART or even the Muni in SF. Those transit systems are not bus systems; they were designed as transportation systems.

Fresno’s transportation system (a privately built company) was ripped out of existence in the 1930s and replaced with automobiles.

There is a solution to the Night Life dilemma, creating “third spaces” and not being subjected to DUIs. The only answer today is a taxi, to be sure but, $20 and the inconvenience of stranding your car? An answer, not a solution.

And that antique streetcar thing that is being talked about? With the horrendous costs of building that thing and all of those wires? What an embarrassment to Fresno that its officials would even propose to build a system that uses 125 year old technology since Fresno’s voters elected a special fund in Measure C that specifically say to use “New Technology.” What kind of elected official pushes to misappropriate “New Tech” money with the argument: “It’s new to Fresno.” That trolley is not new to Fresno, it uses the exact same technology as the one built in the early 1900s. Furthermore, Fresno is the ONLY community in the Nation to vote in special funds strictly for New Technology Transit. Where are these funds now? We’ve been paying ½ cents since July 1 and there is no direction on how this New Technology Transit system is going to be used except for certain officials that are trying to burn the voters for a novelty antique toy that isn’t a transit system.

Many months ago the Mayor picked a specially selected committee called the “10 x 10 Blue Ribbon Committee”. He gave them the task of figuring out how to get 10,000 affordable homes built by 2010. Great noble task, he requested that they think “out of the box”. There was no conversation about using innovative building materials and building methods. The conversation immediately went to how the contractors could receive subsidies. One of the first things they scheduled themselves to do was to go to other communities to see what they have done. When I was in school and the teacher gave an assignment, it was considered cheating to copy someone else’s work. The Mayor chose people who live within the box; they are incapable of thinking outside the box where they live.

So it is with the officials that envy other city’s transit systems. Fresno has a lot of very innovative people; apparently it is difficult to maintain innovation as a way of life in all social circles. Regarding transportation the Fresno officials need to pay attention to what the voters have given them: a means of leading the nation with an innovative transit system. That antique streetcar trolley would cost a minimum of $35 million per mile to build. There are existing prototype “New Technology Transit” systems, like a PRT (Personal Rapid Transit) system available today. These “New Tech” systems can be built at a cost of $5million to $20million per mile. The voters said they want the “New Tech” system, where are the leading Fresno officials talking about the funds that exist for this?

You want a solution to attract business development and stimulate a clientele base for “third spaces” and night life, look to your tax money.

Ok...so Fresno has a route that covers most of the locations listed above, but why does it stop at 10pm? The 'ideal' express loop I'm asking about is one that will address nightlife/entertainment, and Fresno's apparent DUI problem (that Fresno PD is so vigilant about cracking down on). Here in Fresno we have a constant battle going on; People say there's nothing to do after dark, so small business owners and entrepreneurs build hip bars, restaurants, night-clubs, and other night-spots, most of which serve alcohol, but then Fresno PD hovers outside the night spots waiting to track down the patrons and give them DUIs, making all the things that are fun to do after dark, very inconvenient to do. Anyone who's ever taken a cab across town in Fresno knows that it's a very quick way to burn through your pay check, but patrons who want to go out to these venues and drink, but not drive, are stuck without any other good, affordable alternatives. Even if it's not an 'Express' per se, Fresno definitely needs a bus route that hits all of the nigh-life spots, AND runs at least until 2 or 3 am (If not 24 hours). We need to follow the example of an area like San Jose / Silicon Valley and create a route like VTA/Silicon Valley's Route 22 -- It starts out in South San Jose, heads up to Downtown San Jose, then the HP Pavillion, then the CalTrain, then the Santa Clara Train Station/Transfer Station / Santa Clara University Stop, then up to downtown Sunnyvale, then Downtown Mountain View, then Downtown Palo Alto, and even a bit farther north than that -- All of that, AND it runs 24 hours! Yes, Fresno has an extensive bus system, but it only addresses the market of people who don't have cars and for which the bus is the only option. I would like to see Fresno's transit department start addressing the crowd that HAS VEHICLES, but would prefer taking the bus after dark as a way to get to and from their entertainment venues of choice without risking driving under the influence.

the 28 has way too many stops to be an express line
from Shaw & Cole in Clovis to Kings Canyon/Winery in SE Fresno, its 1 hr 40 mins

it stops by Sierra Pavilions, Wal-Mart, FSU, Fashion Fair, Manchester Center, FCC, Tower District, Downtown, UMC, Welfare, Fairgrounds, Fresno Pacific, IRS, Sunnyside HS

the 58E, when it started, began at Manchester Center, to RiverPark to its stop @ Children's Hospital CC in Madera
now its from RiverPark to CHCC only

we need a 28E

fresno does have a loop that goes to almost all those places. it's called route 28. it runs daily from what, 6am-10pm. 6-6 is every fifteen minutes for pick ups. only costs $1. and, you could get a free transfer that will take you to riverpark/woodward.

the only places on that list it doesn't go are riverpark & woodward. but, it does go out to fresno pacific.

I liked the idea of having an express bus between COS, downtown Visalia, and downtown Tulare. Is Fresno looking at something similar? Wouldn't it be great if there was an express bus route that ran the following 24x7 loop with stops at each location every hour (or does this route already exist?):

-CSUF / Woodward Park / Riverpark / City College / Tower District / Downtown Fresno / back to CSUF