Fresno Famous

Same source of information

Like so many other stucies of the downtown area and the Fulton Mall there main source of information probably was Craig Sharton. He has been preaching this lie about vehiclular traffic on the mall for many years. The interesting thing is that none of the studies I have seen indicate how vehiclular traffic will revitalize the Fulton Mall.

That makes one think

that people are keeping things hidden. These documents need to be made public. How can any single person have any kind of knowledgeable opinion without basis of comparison.

I'm all for being unique but you can build a unique thing by improving on concepts that are already proven to work. As opposed to spinning your wheels building on a concept already proven to fail.

In either case, whatever is chosen the city has to be behind it and push hard for it. A study I read, and intend to make available, states that the city is not interested enough in the progress of downtown. They do not actively market it, which is what every other SUCCESSFUL downtown does...

Diablo

One More Study

A prior post asked about studies about the economic viability of pedestrian malls. A recent study (Oct 07, by Wilbur Smith Associates) that includes information on the Fulton Mall is the Downtown Transportation & Infrastructure Study.
What is it doing now? I hope not collecting dust on a shelf, like so many others.
It sure is worth a look.
The information presented includes case studies of several current and former pedestrian malls.
It says that national experience suggests that opening the Fulton Mall to general vehiclular traffic is most likely to help revitalize Fulton Street as an activity center and the heart of the Downtown.
I guess it just depends on whether that's what you want or not.

Fulton Mall on the National Register of Historic Places

Re: the reason pro-traffic people seem to be concerned about putting the mall on the National Register of Historic Places is that it would supposedly make it very difficult to add traffic because lengthy and expensive environmental review under CEQA (the California Environmental Quality Act) would be required. Also, NEPA review would be required, (National Environmental Policy Act), but CEQA is pretty tough by itself.

But here's the thing - even if they NEVER list the mall on the NRHP - it would still require CEQA review, because this is California. This would still be a significant hurdle, but it is debatable about how much additional anti-traffic protection the NRHP listing would provide.

Also, just because something is on the National Register does NOT mean that it cannot be altered, modified or destroyed. In fact, NRHP properties are torn down every year. They're tearing down one right now in Fresno on P Street.

You said . . .

something like . . . "We already have Olive Avenue in the Tower. Imagine if that street was closed and turned into a mall."

Please do imagine that. And then imagine keeping it like that for 45 years.

Comparing Fulton to Fashion Fair because they're both malls is like comparing Millerton Lake to the Pacific Ocean because they're both bodies of water.

what are Malls?

my point is that if the Fulton Mall would be opened to traffic then it would not be a mall anymore.

Also the lame excuse that people need to drive up close to a store and park close, is not needed at Fashion Fair Mall.

the truth is the only difference in Fashion Fair and the Fulton Mall besides one being outdoors in the open is that Fashion Fair can lock the doors to the mall, and you can't do that on the Fulton Mall, unless they install, Gates... and that may have been a good idea that they never did, Imagine the Fulton Mall as a Gated Mall, so they can close it down, but then that would kill any after hours night life entertainment.

If the Fulton is ever opened back up to cars then don't ever call it a Mall again.

Now lets talk about the Mariposa Mall, this last week the Bee published a map of downtown and they listed the Mariposa Mall in the wrong place. I think it's because most people don't know where the Mariposa Mall is in downtown Fresno.

Note: Once Fulton Street had Street Cars but now the Fulton is a dead end street on both ends, Highway 41 blocks the south end of the Fulton.

AntiMusick

Just wondering if you have any kind of supporting study or research that supports your statements. I want to learn more about the function/intention/method behind a pedestrian mall.

Note that the Fulton Mall was a street first, a mall second. Fashion Fair has never been a street or designed as an open air mall.

Diablo

Fulton Mall back in to Fulton St.?

Opening Fulton Mall to vehicular traffic, will destroy the Mall it would not be a mall anymore if there is traffic... So the Ideas of saving Fulton mall by allowing traffic, would kill Fulton mall, if they want to open some traffic let bicycles ride on the mall.

Opening Fashion Fair Mall to Traffic
would provide equal visibility and access to all tenants, and parking in front of the commercial tenants. traffic will encourage more people to come to Fashion Fair for shopping, broadening the economic base potential shoppers and diners will be able to experience Fashion Fair Mall from a street first and from the safety of their automobiles. Tenants will have visibility for their stores at nighttime. Fashion Fair Mall can still be closed for events and festivals. But opening Fashion Fair mall will increase needed traffic lanes in that area of town.

Hmmm Opening Fashion Fair Mall to Traffic and destroying the Fulton Mall both seem like stupid ideas.

you see the Fulton Mall would not be a mall if it's opened to cars... then it would only be a shopping , entertainment street.
We all ready have Olive Ave. in the Tower. Imagine if that street was close and turned in to a Mall.

Open the Fulton mall up to

Open the Fulton mall up to vehicle traffic! To be able to drive down that street again like it was in the 50's & early 60's would be like getting part of our soul back.

as requested - results of fulton study

In 2002, ELS Architecture and Urban Design prepared a Fulton Street Revitalization study and submitted it to Fresno's RDA. It provides Study Area and Scope, Legacy, Public Process, The Concept Design, and Rediscovering Fulton Street sections. Its consultants included architects, landscape and urban planners, a market researcher, graphics designers, and Transportation Consultants. They explored many options for revising traffic circulation patterns to support Fulton Street businesses.

They selected re-opening the entire Fulton Mall to traffic for the following reasons:
"Opening all six blocks of Fulton Street provides equal visibility and access to all commercial tenants
Existing tenants require more visibility and some street parking to improve sales
Existing pedestrian environment and streetscape amenities can be preserved and do not have to be sacrificed
Based on market research, vehicular traffic will encourage more people to come downtown for shopping and entertainment, broadening the economic base
Potential shoppers and diners will be able to experience the street first from the safety of their automobile
New regional tenants will demand visibility for their storefronts
Nighttime uses and desirable and will be encouraged by increased access and activity along the mall
Traffic lanes can be closed for special events and festivals
Connections to neighboring districts in all four directions will be strengthened by a continuous street grid
Fulton Street has an historic legacy - as the heart of a downtown shopping and commercial district - which can be restored and promoted."

Our local merchants' organization, The Downtown Association, has had this information for 6 years.
I have my copy but I ain't giving it up for nobody.

How about

this, since there are supposedly a number of reports, we find the reports and start spreading the knowledge they contain. They need to be more public to the effect that more people can interact and form an opinion based on the contents of the studies. Random people stating the mall is in decline and listing the number of problems is one thing, having a report listing those same problems along with a method of how to address those problems as matter of fact would be most beneficial.

No one seems to be stepping forward with these studies and pressing the issues of their contents. The only opinion I can form is that of what I see on the mall daily and nightly and what goes on in the surrounding area. I'd like to know more about recommendations made by focus studies. There are supposedly many of them out there, but I have yet to see one.

At least any opinion on economy can be based on formal facts contained in those studies. The profile of this issue needs to be elevated to the effect that the community at large can form opinion and help decide the progress of downtown. Instead, there is a small group of individuals in the Coalition having their way with the mall because they are the only ones taking any kind of stand on the direction the mall takes. And their stand is to keep it in the quagmire it's in, or at the very least not help it move forward economically but address a small part of what the mall should be about. I can appreciate their efforts, we take part in arthop- father is an artist- I have made and sold works of art, but there can be middle ground and I wouldn't want my art to stand in the way of a cities progress.

As far as Historic Preservation, my understanding is that the mall has to meet criteria to be eligible to placed on the list. What does being on the list mean? From my understanding again, it means that the mall can qualify for monies from the government that goes towards upkeep or the like. My understanding is limited, I do intend on making time to be at the meetings listed above and I suggest the same for all of Fresno. The mall isn't one council member's, one mayor's or one group's legacy, it's Fresno's legacy.

Diablo

economic viability

All I can say to that is, what was true in 1970 may not necessarily be true today. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate the situation. Even if the mall isn't economically viable today, who's to say that it won't be once some of these housing projects come to fruition.

And while the mall may not be economically viable that doesn't mean broken sidewalks aren't a safety hazard, that trash doesn't need to be picked up, and that burned out lights don't need to be replaced.

I liked Calthorpe's idea of the jumping fountains, but I think it was a bit premature. It was the equivalent of having a failing roof on your house and thinking it might be a good time to paint the walls.

As for the Coalition getting the mall on the Historical Register, it's my opinion that they know exactly what the ramifications of the placement will do. I think blocking traffic is not their sole intention, I think they know full well that it will make ANY change difficult and probably cost prohibitive.

Fulton Mall

The budget for mall maintenance, which has already been woefully inadequate, was cut this year. And not only that, they also added to their list of responsibilities maintenance of the new landscaping on Kern Street. So now they have to do more, with less, when they already weren't properly funded to begin with. And then there's the revolving door of city supervisors for the mall, it seems like it's a different person in charge every 5 months.

Re: the ice rink & Legacy Project - my understanding is that it's on hold due to the current lending market, as are a number of other projects

At a meeting earlier this year, one of the staffers from the Economic Development Dept said that simply fixing the existing features on the Fulton Mall won't solve anything, because even when everything was in good condition, fountains working, etc, it was not economically viable. That perhaps is true, as mall sales went on a steady decline from 1970 on, and at that time the mall was in good shape. This is why the city wanted to design new fountains for the mall, and hired Calthorpe to do the "linear water feature" thing with the jumping water jets. It seems that idea simply faded away, in large part because of the Downtown Coalition's application to list the mall on the National Register of Historic Places. Their intent is to get it listed on the register to prevent it from ever being turned back into a street. However, such a designation could also make adding any new features to the mall, from public restrooms to new artwork to new fountains difficult.

Excellent

Thanks Andy, been meaning to post on that.

Diablo

State Historical Status Possible for Mall

There is a very strong push to put the Fulton Mall on the State's and National Historic Register by the Downtown Coalition. This status is for the mall itself and not any buildings lining it.
There is a lot of questions of what it would mean to put the mall on the historic register. Does it mean no light rail or street cars? No two or one way traffic? Can you replace trash cans or update plumbing? Can new art be added?
The Mayor's office is against this move and is hoping to persuade the state board to not approve of this quest when the board meets in November. The Downtown Coalition is hoping to preserve the landscape architect's Garrett Eckbo work for historical reasons.
Because there are a lot of questions as to what historical status means the Downtown Association is having a series of forums next month to hopefully answer these questions.
Taken from the Downtown Association's press release:

Wednesday September 3 History and "Sense of Place"
Tour Fulton Mall with an expert guide, exploring the designs, sculptures and
buildings. Join a discussion of the history and significance of the Mall,
the Mall art and Garrett Eckbo.
LOCATION: Fulton Mall Clock Tower, 5:00 p.m. for walk, followed by
discussion.

Monday September 22 What does National Historic Designation mean?
What does it allow? What does it not allow? Prepared questions will be
presented to a panel of experts in Historic Preservation and CEQA
(California Environmental Quality Act) compliance. Public questions can be
submitted at the forum.
LOCATION: City of Fresno Council Chambers, 5:00 p.m., preceding the Historic
Preservation Commission meeting.

Wednesday October 1 Sustainability: The Way Forward
Either with designation or without, what is the next step? Imagine a vibrant
Fulton Mall district. What does that look like? Can we learn from pedestrian
malls in other cities? How do we pay for different alternatives? How do we
define success?
LOCATION: Bankers Ballroom on Fulton Mall, 5:00 p.m.

Additional information available

TEAR THE FULTON MALL OUT

I'm the first to say Fresnans need to evolve beyond their car-dependency, but honestly, first thing's first: downtown has to be made a destination for Fresnans and, unfortunately, that's going to have to be by car. Until the year 2108, when cars are outlawed, light rail is the gold standard for transportation and most coastal cities are under water from global warming-induced melting ice caps, the Fulton Mall as a pedestrian mall is a complete waste of everyone's time and money, not to mention an obstacle to downtown revitalization.

Get rid of it and put a two way street back in.

If you are going to make

If you are going to make wild accusations at least have some proof to back them up.

The ice rink isn't happening right now as it was part of a mixed used project that included apartments. Given the current housing market it isn't a good idea to build new residents when there are already ones out there that are being foreclosed. Might want to do some research next time FG.

What is sports town other then another farce created by Bubba?

Its another sad attempt by him to leave a legacy as Mayor.
Like the failed baseball stadium which Mayor Patterson vetoed and was proven right about.
People ask where is the sports at on sports town?
There is none?
Where is the Atletic Hall of Fame?
Which building is it?
All that money wasted and the new sidewalks are already stained and filthy and the cobble stones are sinking in.
Who get sued when someone trips and falls?
You ask why no bidding and why it was fast tracked?
Somebodys wifes cousins brother needed a job at taxpayers expense.
So it goes with the Good Old Boys.
What happened to the Ice Rink?
Guess they couldn't milk the taxpayers to get it?

I agree...

that maintenance is just a piece of the puzzle. I by no means meant that it was the cure for all that ails it. There are numerous issues facing the mall: political, social, financial, just to name a few.

But for today, better maintenance could go a LONG way in making the experience more enjoyable for everyone. And its my belief that a more enjoyable visit will translate into more frequent visits and eventually into more money for the merchants.

I feel where you are coming from

with the maintenance angle. Simple fact eluded to in another post on the mayoral race, only people in the circle of influence seem to be the ones getting things done, or any help, or any progress done in this city. There are implications that stem off more and more like when glass shatters.

So, how in the world is there a million dollars worth of money to fix up Kern Street seemingly from out of no where? There was nothing wrong with Kern, and a whole bunch of things wrong with the Mall. A million bucks would give the mall it's own full time crew to keep it clean 24/7 at the very least.

How in the world does Kern Street get fixed up with out the job being opened to bid for contractors to compete for the work? That job was fast tracked from start to finish, who even bid on designing the plans?

How is there money for that infrastructure to be improved, when Reza is down the street and the city is forcing him to fix the infrastructure around his projects out of pocket. Who is paying for the Fulton Plaza sidewalks? Not the city. Why? Why is there that difference.

Circle of influence man. Good old boys. Which means what? Those people in that circle don't care about the mall. With all the reasons they have to care, one of a kind sculptures worth millions, why do you think they don't?

I don't think upkeep alone would have kept things from being the way they are, but at least it'd look somewhat better. I do not think the design took all things into consideration, but I do think that upkeep could have helped it stay looking better longer. Let's not forget, it's an old mall. This means in order to keep it looking nice, you have to do more than upkeep it, you have to trouble shoot it for longevity. Similar to the way they do with that big monument in the Dakota's with all the presidents busts on it. Name escapes me right now.....me needs a quad latte in a bad way...

Diablo