Here is some interesting Dialog via Mindhub. I'm reposting it here for a few reasons. I hope that is doesn't backfire for any reason and cause people to stop posting to mindhub at all. After consulting with some people it was decided that mindhub is a bit closed off to the public in a certain sense, even though it is free. It's format prevents it from being a database of knowledge easily accessible a la google search. So I repost it here because the information it contains is not easily found, and the dialog is very enlightening.

I've done a bit of reformatting to keep a little bit better flow. I should spend more time on it, but I have none. You'll catch on quickly I'm sure. You might want to start at the bottom with the oldest post and work your way up. None of the dialog has been modified and it's just a copy paste kind of edit. I've also removed other posts that are informative as well, if you aren't on the list, you might consider signing up, this is the kind of thing you are missing.

I saw they removed names over on beehive, so I came back and did the same just to make sure...( I have Joes permission to use his posts)

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Today's Topics:

2. "Old Armenian Town, Legacy Project & Forest City
(Jodi Fitzpatrick)
8. Re: "Old Armenian Town, Legacy Project & Forest City
()
11. Re: Forest City ()
12. Re: Forest City ()
14. Re: Forest City ()
15. Re: Forest City ()

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:19:34 -0700
From: ""
Subject: Re: [MindHub] Forest City
To: "''"
Cc: 'Mindhub' mindhub-list@list.mindhub.org

Not that I am aware of at this point. It Is important to remember one thing,unlike government, a private company understands that time is money and the longer things take the more it costs. The timetable issue with Forrest City is not a result of them but of the enormous amount of regulation and study that is required by government.

Please don't forget that both the Legacy project and Forrest City are building residential communities in the downtown area. This is the most important thing we can do right now to support this area. We need people to live there and when they do, downtown will be a very worthwhile place to invest in.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Moore
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:51 PM
To:
Cc: Mindhub
Subject: Re: [MindHub] Forest City

Thanks for the info on the financing. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. As far as other land available for development in downtown, it's my understanding that there are some interesting proposals from Cliff Tutellian and potentially others in the area north of Merced Street on the mall. Of course much of the mall isn't all that desirable for developers due to the lack of vehicle traffic, which is an issue unto itself. Certainly the stadium area has advantages for development that other downtown areas don't have. There's also a fairly decent collection of older single story warehouses still intact that offer rehab possibilities that aren't as plentiful in other downtown areas, due to past examples of "clear cut" urban renewal.

Re: Phase 1 of Forest City - we might be debating semantics, but
assuming the project moves forward, even with a groundbreaking in
Summer 09, that would mean it would open around Summer 2010. I
suggested the opening of Phase 1 is years off, which even given your
timeline is still correct. And that's about five years into the
project. Is there an estimated timeline for completion of phases 2 and 3?

Thanks

On Jun 2, 2008, at 10:41 PM,

The RDA purchased the property because it was for sale and the price was affordable. That way we don't have to worry about eminent domain. The final details of how the project will be totally financed and structured has not been worked out but I can assure you taking all the property off the tax rolls would not make any sense and the project would not be financially feasible. The property tax increment will be a very important source of revenue. We will all see the final financial package later this fall and then everyone will have the exact details of how it works.

To respond to your point number 3; While it is true that Forrest
City has development control over the South Stadium Project area, there is lots of other parts of downtown that are available for development, including the North part of Fulton Mall.

In regards to your comments regarding the time to revitalize, I
respect your opinion but disagree. Forrest City is expecting ground breaking on phase 1 by next summer.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Moore
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:18 PM
To: Mindhub
Cc:
Subject: Re: [MindHub] Forest City

You said that the city's investment in Forest City is for
infrastructure. As in roads, sewers, water? All that sounds good, and certainly is needed in the project area, but according to the
reports in The Bee, the public investment also extends to buying the land itself. Back in February, you voted to authorize the RDA to begin purchasing property for the development. And according to The Bee (2/26/08) the RDA will retain ownership of that property, and lease it back to Forest City on a long term basis.

1) I'm not especially knowledgeable in deals like this, but to me that sounds like a public investment in land, not just infrastructure. Unless land is called "infrastructure," or purchasing that land is not considered a "public investment." Or maybe The Bee is wrong:

http://www.fresnobee.com/263/story/425050.html

2) By having the RDA own the land, not Forest City, isn't that taking more private land off the property tax rolls? And isn't that a subsidy to Forest City as well, since they won't be paying that property tax? I thought that redevelopment relied on tax increment, or increases in the property tax generated by "redeveloped" property to help pay off the debt incurred in funding redevelopment activities. Again, I'm not an expert, and I'm not trying to be flippant with these questions, I'm simply a bit confused as to how the deal works. 85 acres is a lot of land to take off the property tax rolls. Is there an in lieu fee charged to Forest City that repays the debt?

3) Re: small scale developments - I know there have been several
businesses that have expressed some interest in renovating the old
warehouses around the park into shops and offices, but their vision
didn't meet Forest City's vision, or the uncertainty and risk of
investing in a project, only to be told to get out, made it a deal
breaker. For example, a software company was interested in one
building, with plans to convert it into the type of hip urban office space that you'll often find in San Francisco. There are other examples too, some of them well publicized in The Bee, others not. There are actually fewer businesses open in the project area today than when the stadium opened.

4) Re: waiting 30 years for revitalization - You're presenting a false choice. It's not a choice between complete and instant revitalization with Forest City or a 30 year pace of incremental development. The opening of Phase I of Forest City is still years off. There is no guarantee that it will happen. And there is certainly no guarantee that there will be a Phase II or a Phase III at all, let alone anytime soon. Nor is there any guarantee that we would see the completion of the whole 85 acres by 2035.

Master planned developments can take a long time, just as long or
longer than incremental development. I will refer you to the Fresno Bee, November 9th, 1977 and the headline "Tutelian Plan To Rebuild 6
Downtown Blocks OKd". That was the start of the Civic Center Square
development, which only was completed just a couple of years ago. Ed Kashian and Harold Zinkin began work on what would become River Park back in November on 1973, when they petitioned the city to annex their 1,776 acres of land. And they're still building. So just because a master developer is behind a project, it doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly. In fact, there are many cases where a run down neighborhood has been turned around MUCH faster one property at a time. Small businesses, entrepreneurs, people willing to take a risk, and see potential, where you see "authentic Fresno blight." Old warehouses, instead of being torn down for new construction, can be rehabbed as offices, lofts, shops, etc. New construction can take place on vacant lots (there's plenty of those in the South Stadium area) and provide some greater density for housing, etc. In a few years, things can turn around dramatically, if we remove the obstacles.

And here's another important thing to remember. It's not a start-
finish process. Dynamic urban areas are constantly changing, evolving, with bursts of growth and yes, some decay, which then creates new opportunities for growth. That's what makes cities interesting, vibrant places. I'd be happy to take a walk with you down Broadway or Fulton south of the stadium and talk about what's blighted and has to go, and what has real potential as it is right now. It's all about mindset. When you look at the area - you see what's wrong with it, while others see what's right with it and can be improved upon.

5) FYI - with the election Tuesday, I thought I'd do a quick search on where Forest City Residential West has put its campaign money. They donated over $100,000 to the No on 98/Yes on 99 campaign. I'm not saying this is bad, or inappropriate, or any cause for alarm, I just think it's informative to know where they put their support.
http://www.electiontrack.com/lookup.php?committee=1285334

The last time eminent domain was on the ballot in 2006, they donated $250,000 to defeat the measure (prop 90)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/05/MNGBOLINS...
TL

Here's some of their other campaign contributions from this go
around...
http://cal-access.sos.ca.gov/Campaign/Committees/Detail.aspx?id=1011615&...
=contributions

wrote:
Some points to consider:

1. These areas have been available for years and no one has
bothered to step up.
2. The city is not exactly getting its doors knocked on with people
interested in these "small scale" projects
3. All the projects you named as examples of "demonstrable success"
have, with the exception of the Crescent Building, required significant city subsidy in a much higher ratio than either Forrest City or the Legacy Project will ever require.
4. The Forrest City investment that the city is considering is for
infrastructure that will help not just their area but also the entire downtown. This is necessary infrastructure needed to make even "small Scale" projects work.
5. There is plenty of land in Downtown outside if these two project
areas for other developers to look at. If there is so much interest from other private developers, where are they? I'd love to talk to them.
6. The 80 acres of the Forrest City project area South of the
stadium is certainly authentic. Its authentic Fresno blight. I would encourage you to drive the area and tell me if you disagree.
7. I hope everyone is patient. If we stop these larger projects and
just wait for more smaller scale ones, it will take 30 years to make enough of a difference for our downtown to actually turn around, but by then all the projects done today will also be blight.
8. The city is already working with "small scale" developers with
as we speak. The Virginia Hotel is just one example as is the Hotel Fresno. There are no closed doors at city hall for people interested in investing their money.

-----Original Message-----
From: mindhub-list-bounces@list.mindhub.org
On Behalf Of
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:32 AM
To: mindhub-list@list.mindhub.org
Subject: [MindHub] "Old Armenian Town, Legacy Project & Forest City

Joe Moore writes:

I've heard politicians and others say that you need to give a
developer rights to these huge tracts in order to revitalize a downtown. This of course is very interesting, considering that such large, "master developer" projects are somewhat rare in existing "built" urban areas (as opposed to say the Stapelton Airport project in Denver- which isn't exactly in downtown, or conversion of old Navy yards). In fact it seems that far more cities have had downtown revitalization success with a smaller scale approach, with things the size of the Legacy Project and smaller, than have had success with 70+ acre exclusive master developer projects in
their downtowns. He's absolutely right. "Master developer" projects just make it easy on the developer and the planning department. They do nothing for the authenticity of a town and they tie up land that smaller, more nimble developers and private citizens could be building on, NOW. Not in five years when they finally get the city to spend millions of dollars (our dollars) in subsidizing them.

The demonstrable success we've had downtown has been through
smaller-scale projects. Again, the Tutelian family has been developing most of our successful projects for several decades, one at a time. They include the Galleria, Civic Center Square, the Crescent Building, 2100 Tulare Street and now the Trade Center and the lofts on Inyo and Van Ness. Reza Assemi's projects, The Vagabond and H Street Lofts, are also examples. After these braves souls put their money on the line, Gunner Andros (Armenian Town) and Tom Richards came in.

In my humble opinion "master developer" plans should be reserved
for open space, like the new SEGA, South East Growth Area that's being planned. I believe June 10 there will be an informational meeting on this plan, and it looks pretty exciting. There is an excellent brochure on it available that was designed by our own Suzanne Burtz-Rosa.

Let's cut our losses and kick Forest City and the Kashian Chinatown
projects to the curb. Let's open downtown/Chinatown to independents that otherwise would not risk being eminent domained out of these areas. The money the city is considering subsidizing Forest City with can be used to support site work and street work and renovation to existing structures, which are hella expensive to rescue and for which private parties really do deserve financial help in making their investments profitable. This will help our town reduce the incidence of generic developer architecture, like quote-unquote Old Armenian Town, and give us a more authentic inner core. Faster.