Fresno Famous

Living Proof

My daughter has been taught from birth on to see people as they are.
To not judge people by the color of the skin, their religion or whom they choose to love. There is good and bad in every group of people. Gravitate towards the good.
There has never been a time in her life when she didn't know that she shares the Earth with gay people.
Did being completely honest with her make her "turn" gay.
No. That's ridiculous. Although, had she been born gay, I would love her every bit as much.
What it did was create a tolerant, loving individual with a well rounded group of friends -straight and gay- that she loves very dearly.

?

"if there aren't (i'm not saying there aren't) christians who vocally and actively oppose prop 8 and anti-gay discrimination, then it's easier for people to lump all christians together. does that make sense?"

no, it's not making sense to me. i am a Xian. i have stated in other threads here on famous of that fact. i have also been open of my opposition of prop 8. stormwysper has said both of those things on this thread. i know other individual Xians thatthere are Xian churches that have come out in opposition of prop 8, as well as those that have supported it. so, by lumping all Xians into the homophobic/xenophobic/fundamentalist/whatever group you are perpetuating a stereotype. it's lazy.

i do agree that 8 has been cast in the light of it being a Xian/moral issue, and that much of the campaigning for it has been fear based. this is unfortunate.

but, many of the people that i have talked to that were supporting 8 were not supporting it because of the religious beliefs. rather, they were against homosexuality being taught in schools to their children. i've tried to explain that the proposition does not say anything about schools, that marriage and all sorts of lifestyles are already taught in school, and that this was true before gay marriage was allowed, and would be true even if it 8 passed. i've also tried to point out that should 8 passed it would face a legal challenge and would likely be ruled discriminatory and removed.

need to actively oppose discrimination

one more thing. prop 8 is backed by christians, and it's seen as a christian/moral issue. if there aren't (i'm not saying there aren't) christians who vocally and actively oppose prop 8 and anti-gay discrimination, then it's easier for people to lump all christians together. does that make sense?

let's say there's a proposition to ban black people from voting (which is happening de facto in some states). the backers of the proposition are racist whites. i'm white, and if i don't actively oppose this proposition, i wouldn't be too surprised if black people lumped me in with the group of racist whites. maybe i don't support the proposition, but it's hard to tell if i not vocalize my opposition.

the point

stormwysper,

that's part of the point. i know not all christians are anti-gay or for prop 8. but for those who are anti-gay and support prop 8, i'm trying to show that discrimination about gay folks is ignorant and unreasonable, partially by claiming that christian marraige should be banned or railing against the christian agenda. through satire, irony, and comparison.

there is of course a horrible christian agenda, but not all christians support it. i guess it would more accurately be called a fundamentalist christian agenda.

when i insist on discrimination against christians (like banning their marraige), if they are offended, then that's good because it shows sort of how gay people feel when their rights are attacked. it points out that it's ridiculous to take anybody's rights away

and like the last person to comment says, "welcome to my world." when christians are offended by being lumped into a negative stereotype, maybe they can start to understand how others feel.

this tactic may have offended some people or made them angry, but that's okay because when someone has privilege (like the right to marry and not be discriminated against) then they occasionally need to be woken up to the fact that they have rights and privileges and gain from certain social arrangements in ways that others don't. i'm white and male and straight and if people challenge me on this and remind me that i have privilege and need to think about how i benefit from being white, male, and straight, and that i need to fight racism, sexism, and homophobia, then that will help me be a better person.

above all, we should all think and be conscious of society and our position in it. we should always think and question authority.
i grew up catholic, by the way, and went to catholic school, so i know the importance of questioning authority and independent thinking.

Tired?

Tired of hearing that you've been lumped into a group and hated? Welcome to my world.

Can you please stop lumping

Can you please stop lumping all Christians into one ignorant group like you have been? I'm Catholic and don't have this so called agenda you keep saying all Christians have. Honestly I'm getting pretty fucking tired of the same shit you keep spouting over and over.

We know you hate Christians, we get it. Move on for fuck's sake.

christian agenda

good point! gay folks have no agenda but christians certainly have. see the aforementioned list of christian atrocities.

God's "true" nature

Perhaps what makes Primate so angry is the irrational and superstitious insistance by so many that there is a "GAY AGENDA" when there is no such thing! We are not vampires out to drain the holy blood from your ferral children and replace it with vodka and cranberry juice. There are also many (homosexual and heterosexual and somewhere in between) who do not believe in any sort of god at all (or devil either) who are growing increasingly fatigued and irritated with that well known "CHRISTIAN AGENDA" of forcefully converting everyone on the planet and demanding that they adhere to Christianity's Contradictory Commandments.

You don't say?

"you all seem to not think independently"

I'm glad you seem to know us so well.

ruining marriage

no gay people are trying to ruin marriage. i don't even know where you get this idea from. i am so angry right now that so many people in this country have been overtaken by illogical, crazy thoughts. you all seem to not think independently, but think whatever your preacher tells you to think.

since the dawn of religion, it has always been used as a tool of oppression.

reality - christianity is a mental illness

you are so far removed from reality you don't know what's going on. your argument is very illogical. gays have no "agenda". they want to not be persecuted and discriminated against, and they want to be seen as people. they want the rights that are supposedly guaranteed to every citizen. that's all.

you crazy christians have this warped sense of reality that everyone is out to get you and corrupt your children and make the world evil. so what if your children learn that gay people can get married? how is that going to affect them at all? you live in this insane world where your children are precious little robots to be protected from "evil" and "corruption" like gay marriage. you don't acknowledge that children and people should be free to think for themselves and develop their own opinions. you have to control what they think, what they believe, and how they live their lives, and you have to control how others live their lives as well. GAY PEOPLE GETTING MARRIED WILL HAVE NO NEGATIVE IMPACT ON YOUR CHILDREN OR ANYBODY'S CHILDREN. you have a delusional, psychotic, worrisome detachment from reality.

there's something called the separation of church and state (well, there's supposed to be). your messed up religious views should have no bearing on banning the rights of others.

constitutions are supposed to be about guaranteeing rights, not taking them away. your hated of gay people is your viewpoint and you have NO RIGHT to determine how others live their lives.

all of those things i listed were done in the name of god and in the name of christ and in the name of being christian. i can show you quotes and facts to back them up if you like.

but if you're so into living christ's example, then why don't you practice some tolerance and loving your neighbor (all of them)? you people make me sick. your hated and divisions and narrow-minded views are part of what's wrong with this world. and that is why we should ban christian marriage.

but seriously. there is no logical reason to ban gay marriage. if you don't like gay marriage, go live in some fundamentalist enclave like the fundamentalist mormons do where you don't have to interact with gay people. you're free to do that. but given the horrible things christians have and continue to do, there is much more reason to ban christian marriage then gay marriage. gay people are just trying to live their lives and be recognized as people. you are trying to deny constitutional rights and natural rights of people to live in peace. that alone shows how evil you christians are.

deleted/missing comments

to attempt to answer your question, primate, someone might have flagged your comments as offensive for whatever reason (i don't know the comment/thread/etc). on each comment anyone can flag it, and if enough people flag a comment or post it sort of goes into internet limbo.

i think they talk about this in the newer terms of service, but i'm not sure.

Banning Christian marriage

I am wondering why "primate" is so angry at world history and specifically his 15 point list of supposed "Christian" atrocities. Anyway, to clarify, none of the listed historical events were Christian at all. Someone saying they are following God isn't necessarily following Christ. As you know, people set up all kinds of things to be their "God." Jesus Christ never exemplified these types of behaviors and a cursory review of the ten commandments reveals God's true nature - -loving and only wanting whats best for you -- His creation. Gay marriage is another in a long list of attempts by this movement to legitimize their behavior. States that already allow gays to marry have not felt a mad rush by the gay community to marry at all. They have on their hands a revelation of the true purpose of the gay agenda -- normalization their behavior. This includes teaching kids they "can" marry the same gender if they want. As soon as homosexuality is normalized then they can work to legally and culturally minimize and ruin long established norms like marriage between a man and woman and families. Two big questions arise: 1) Should such a small percentage of people (GLBT) shape cultural norms, and 2) their rejection of God and the truth of Jesus Christ only hurts them in the long run.