Since your not sure what has to happen then why do you make suggestions on what needs to happen? Do you work for the RDA?

There will be no revitalization of Downtown until the mobility issue is resolved. Measure C provides the funding to do so, why does that fund set there?

There is a one word answer for "fixing" Downtown: convenience.

Not necessarily. The current buildings are not as useful for housing large businesses as they once were, but are likely good for other things like redeveloping into apartments/condos. If you build a tall, modern building downtown and actually provide adequate parking and a fairly quick route to get to it, businesses could conceivably move into it. Of course, a tax break wouldn't hurt as a carrot to dangle in front of them, either. Downtown has to be prettied up a bit at the same time, though, since no one in the business community wants to move their business and commit to driving to a filthy area just to be part of a grand experiment to revive downtown.

I'm not sure what has to happen: a confluence of a bunch of things happening at once- hip condo dwellers moving downtown + a few cool new stores/restaurants + a couple of bigger corporate offices, or one or two trailblazers to actually get something visibly positive going down there.

So, the "expert" didn't even know the Sierras were close to Fresno and doesn't know the name of the streets downtown. Yikes, not my choice to fix local issues.

Woo hoo free baths.

The Downtown water feature is just another atempt by Bubba to create a legacy that will be viewed favorably.

He don't want to be know for the Stadium.

Remember how Jim Patersen vetoed it and everyone was angry?

He said he vetoed it becuse the City(tax payers) would be stuck with the cost.

What happened?

Taxpayers got stuck.

It hasn't paid for itself yet.

They can't even fill it on a regular basis.

The foodstand kitchen's barly met Health Department standards.

Most equipment is marked Property of City of Fresno.

Don't forget to eat that delicious Tri-tip from The Meat Market.

If you build housing near the stadium people will whine about the noise.

How much you want to bet one of the athletes on Bubba's Kern Sports walk is Carlos Brown of the Packers.

Carlos Brown now know as Alan "Bubba" Aurty.

Why not a golden palace as a tribute to Bubba Ceaser Aurty

Unless you get rid the vagrant/drunks and druggies and build free parking garages Downtown will stay dead.

Sorry its just a sign of the times. As a Non White, now rich I can be considered a sellout now that I live in North Fresno with Whitey.

But now that my life is better off in this part of town,I'm to sit finance my hopes for my new "hood".

Don't spend the money on water fountains downtown, unless your going to provide the soap for the homeless so they can bathe in, build them up here, at the could be respectfully be appreciated.

Thanks'
Keyshawne

If mostly rich, white North Fresnans want to build what is essentially a separate Fresno north of, say, Shaw, then they should do it with their own money and stop taxing the rest of Fresnans south of Shaw to do it.

Call it "Rio Mesa," or "Woodward" or whatever the Hell, but just stop making others who suffer from the blight and death of southern Fresno pay for it!

Chris: you said this:

I truely believe that it would be better for the city to buy land in DT and then give it to people who are willing to build things that would actually make DT a better place (skyscrapers, aquarium, theme park, etc)

problem no. 1
the city don't listen to the people

problem no. 2
if you ain't got green, you're unseen

problem no. 3
those in power only hang with those with money

problem no. 4
the obvious answer, ain't so obvious to bureaucrats

case in point: Home for Aged Veterans; don't know who the muckudy-muck that bundled the HAV with Running Horse(my guess is that he LOVES golf), instead of doing the obvious thing, since the Housing Authority of the City & County of Fresno, had this large tract of land across the street from the VA Hospital, where they tore down a housing project that had originally been WWII housing there

but if I was a city bureaucrat, I would have told the HAV that,

"hey, we know that that idea about being by Elkhorn Correctional Facility near Caruthers didn't pan out, but do we have a deal for you"

that statement:
never gonna happen

Careful with the multiple meanings of the word wet when you mention Fresno State.

if it was a demonstration project by those bright kids at WET Fresno State

I take it you didn't write that marketing spin about the fountain that will singly revitalize Downtown.

PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE

Fulton Mall Water Feature

February 13, 2007

Location: Fresno City Hall Council Chambers

2600 Fresno Street, Fresno, CA 93721

Time: 5:00 p.m.

Special Guest: Danno Glanz, Principal, Calthorpe

City of Fresno: Jon Ruiz, Assistant City Manager
Kelly Riddle, Economic Development Coordinator
Jeff Eben, Deputy Mayor

The City of Fresno is exploring the possibility of a dramatic new water feature for the downtown, a ‘linear fountain’ that would help to revitalize the Fulton Mall, connect the City’s important new redevelopment projects, and generally reinvigorate the heart of the community. The planning and design of this downtown water feature will be an exciting challenge and opportunity. The ‘linear fountain’ will need to satisfy a number of important criteria: it will need to be interactive and fun; attractive to kids and families; accommodating of existing conditions on the Fulton Mall; cost effective; and environmentally friendly. It should celebrate the role of water in Fresno’s history and deepen the community’s appreciation of Fresno’s unique culture and setting. But, most of all, a new downtown water feature should bring people back to the center to rediscover the heart of the City! Interested? Come hear about the project and give us your ideas, thoughts, concerns.

motivation?

yeah, identifying problems, working out solutions, etc. etc.

helping folks to sort out these issues, discussing real things that would bring on success in these issues, seeing folks come to their own conclusions on their own town, seeing these things become contributions, encouraging that, rebuilding, etc. etc. yadda yadda.

(Basically my reasons for being a part of this string from the start...)

(I'm not sweating your own motivation for being a part of it, I figure you have your reasons, as does anyone elses, and am assuming they're honest and benevolent, etc. etc. but it's not part of the concern for me.)

I think that the assumed 'motivation,' in most cases, with most people is caring enough about the subject and feeling that there are insights or quetions that they have that they feel valid and pertainant. (It's where I've come from in the past, have been whole time, and will continue to be.)

Hence: the questions I wrote.

I'm more concerned with what peoples opinions are on this and other subjects, and think their motives will show, (if they're relevant at all.)

In a sense, somebody's 'motive,' is kind of none of my business,
(I try to deal with what they're saying, first, and respect their words, and their responsibility for their words 'as is.')
Sometimes re-asking or processing somebody's views reduces their effectiveness (and) takes their voice away. (I don't like doing that.)

-I'm assuming that, by contributing to a thread, they're trying to be a part of a creative process, (even if some of their comments may seem 'negative,' -There is nothing wrong with registering 'negative,' regarding a situation that IS negative, it's just being honest about how a person feels about something.

-The posts in general are all signs of somebody showing enough 'caring,' to say something,
---and speaks volumes about where they're coming from, why,
-and that's all a part of Fresno too.

So, yeah
--the questions?
-the answers?

feel free to shoot from the hip.

Big empty building already there,
Other nice buildings building up elsehwere,
why, how, who...?
(if we're redoing a skyscraper) ---when?

Anybody feel free to chime in, (and I'm assuming your motives are good...)

and your motivation...for asking this question is....(correct me...I don't wish to put words into your mouth)...that if the SkyScraperWishers
knew what was keeping that bank building from flourishing.....they could try and surmount those problems and succeed?

Downtown there is a skyscraper, (already.)

Considering that the average height of a place in fresno is... what, two stories (three really shooting for the moon,)
-The Bank Building (actually darn near all) of the Bank Buildings could qualify as 'skyscrapers.'

-There are some cropping up (tall buildings, nice buildings, BIG buildings,) in other areas of the town too.

And I want to back up a few feet here...
'Skyscraper,'
--in my neck of the woods? A skyscraper is enormously high and out of scale for what goes on like that around here, (no problem, we can adjust, this is a regional thing....)

--So for sake of argument, (figure of speech here...)

We'll call a 'skyscraper,'
-a multi story building that has (either) thriving business, thriving residential, (or both,)
-That stands as a significant signature on the horizon,
-AND 'draws people,' as a 'workplace,' or 'place to visit.'
(sometimes you get both... such as the Empire State Building... (who's offices, fyi are a bit, ahem, well, dated... though I love the building forever...)

So...
When we say 'SkyScraper,'
---Right now (which can change,)

We're talking 'significant building that will generate interest, that is either taller or has some sort of 'drawing ability,' ---so that folks want to be there...'

---Do Skyscrapers have to be monsterously tall?
...nope..
In fact, it's only in recent years that significan buildings 'downtown,' in Philly (center-city, actually,) ---were allowed to be taller than BillyPenn's hat (atop City Hall)
---they've only gone into 'whoah-bohunkus,' skyscrapers in recent years.
-the 'Bank Building,' definitely would qualify as a skyscraper in most other large towns.

Now:

Downtown Fresno's Skyscraper, (which you can see, when the air is passable for human lungs from most major streets, Mid to Upper Blackstone being one:

Theoretically (or realistically) speaking:
-Why is it vacant?
-Why is it (staying,) vacant?
-What (seriously, as in 'beyond a shadow of a doubt,' WILL be done with that building,
---and for yuks, ---OTHER SIGNIFICANT buildings downtown that have 'skyscraper,' draw (or should.)
(---that's one kettle of fish, what's up there?)

---Second issue?

Why are buildings of this nature (or complexes of this nature,) being built ELSEHWERE in the city?
-what reasons are being given by those doing it?, moving there, (etc.)
--what reasons are (possible,) for why?

IS it really 'cheaper,' to put up a whole new building,
IS it more 'desirable,' to build it elsewhere in the city, (vs) 'downtown,'
(yep, I know, lotsa relevant commentary regarding streets and transpo, (I agree the parking thing is atrocious.)

-How do these issues get 'worked through?'

And again, WHY is Fresno's only skyscraper standing there like some big haunted mansion?

Sometimes passionate people of the more liberal persuasion have ended up
giving focused people
of the more conservative persuasion the keys to the car because they couldn’t
come together and work together.

One group won’t join up unless there is specific language about saving the whales
in the club charter. Others won’t sign on unless there’s a bit about solar power.
Another won’t join on unless there’s funding for the homeless. They all go home
after yelling at each other, and the other side walks away with all the chips.
Are all those causes worth working for? Of course. In the scenario above, everyone
of them lost. Is it pride? Is it blindness? Is it ego?

Unless one is incredibly rich and powerful, building consensus and working together
is very very important if you want to address community problems.

Re: someone’s dream of building downtown skyscrapers in Fresno:

Will they encounter the problems of racism in meeting their goals?
Of course, because, racism is a part of the landscape here---as are several other
problems. I think most of the more practical dreamers in the “I would love
to see skyscrapers downtown” group probably know this already. Could
a successful super-skyscraper maybe mix things up and be a step in the right
direction for those concerned with (you may choose more than one cause if
you wish[laughs] ):
downtown revitalization
racism
sprawl
economic revitalization

I dunno. I don’t know much. But I hope for the best for whatever positive projects people decide to launch themselves into. If I think the project is reasonable and positive
I might even lend my own shoulder into an effort, as I believe the others who have posted
on this thread would too.

you rock, babe.

and with that I hand the baton over...

(bless you and all of your camels...)

-E

Did I really write all of that?

I blame that on a certain bloggers subtle influence.

~Rell www.myspace.com/559rell www.myspace.com/trellthareallamane (music production)

...has to be one of the most interesting and impressive threads I've read on here in some time.

I had SO MUCH to say when I first starting reading this, but I kind of feel like edluv on this one: It's been said, so I think I'll just comment on the comments now...

The good things are good but, I can't let the bad things go. I chose the topic I believe is most pertinent and important to this discussion and Fresno as a whole:

Racism.

*Yes, I am a young black male...but it's not as deep rooted as you might think*

Racism is most definitely alive and well in this city. I agree with most of what OotV said on this one, except that I believe it's more of the subtle, deceitful kind of racism. But, I think I know the reason why I see it differently...

"I am not a young man, nor am I a person of color. (even when I tan, it's pretty obvious to look and say '...okay German headed for skin cancer, NEXT.'" - OotV

That's funny, lol...(I'll poke fun @ myself later ;-)

Anyway,

I've mixed and mingled with many different people on MANY different sides of town (including Champlain and Perrin just last night) and I've experienced this gentle devil called Contemporary Racism more than I care to admit.

People ARE building their own worlds to live in... BECAUSE they want to be separated. People hardly know their own culture here because they're forced to look @ culture as "rich or poor". Those are hardly signs of culture but that's really how this city works. Whether it's everywhere or not, I only KNOW that it's here.

It's hard to be your own person. You're either one of "them" or you're not. That's the majority opinion.

Other cities celebrate individuality and you can find a truly multi-cultural event/party/mixer on different sides of town spanning from rich to poor (at least in the other parts of California I've been in).

HERE: You'd be lucky to find a mixed crowd (and not just by race) hanging out in the same place unless you're in the Tower District (where anything goes). But, even in this our most liberal area, you see nothing in comparison to other major cities. And it's not because the people aren't here. THE PEOPLE are BRAINWASHED! (Sorry to sound so Ron Paul/Conspiracist ;-)

But really, being the young socializer that I am, I've seen it again and again in Fresno. If you want luxury, you're dealing with one kind of people and you'd better conform to the established crowd or you'll be booted out.

In Oakland, LA, Frisco... different story.

From Roe, to The Dirty Olive, to On The Rocks, to The Smokehouse... You see ONE TYPE of people at each place... It's kind of sad. The best mix I've ever seen (other than in the Tower District...which is really more of an eclectic crowd than a diverse crowd) is @ The World Sports Cafe. ONE PLACE to find a good mix of people and you pretty much have to be a sports fan and/or a heavy drinker to enjoy it.

The Fresno State area does alright, but that's pretty much because the kids that attend the school have come from all over and kept to their roots so that they can represent where they're from as best they can. It lasts through college (because that's a part of what college is about), but then they either leave or conform to Fresno's "culture".

It's an uphill battle here. You come from out of town, as did Out Of The Void, see Fresno for what it is... but then they say "Hell no we ain't that way! It's because of the ---!"

The cars, the sprawl, the lack of skyscrapers, etc... all came from the attitude of the culture killers who started all of this. They developed for themselves, they weren't told that they couldn't... they continued... and now we're trying to preserve and restore our memories. Hopefully, a new generation (whether trying to be different or trying to enjoy at home what they've experienced out of town) will live and play in what is becoming a quirky memory to most everybody else. Maybe, suburbia will see just how beautiful Downtown Fresno can be...BEYOND the buildings.

When that happens, a great downtown (with buildings to match) will follow.

~Rell www.myspace.com/559rell www.myspace.com/trellthareallamane (music production)

...sorry, never 'been there,' from NYC.
I'm from there.
(And sorry,,, you're a little out of the loop
nearly all of NYC is rich, some of the surrounding boroughs have hard-hit sections,
but NYC (Manhattan) is nearly all doing quite well, financially, (so much so, that most people can't afford to live there anymore.)

And yeah, the skyscraper pictures are pretty.

---I guess the question would be,
--Downtown already has 'skyscrapers,' and authentic and unusual ones at that...
-why are they vacant and deteriorating???

In a way, IF skyscrapers were going to be a big hit downtown,
---wouldn't the big bank building be full of folks with a waiting list to get in???
(I've been in and out of skyscrapers my whole life, personally I like older buildings over new, -they have more character.)

And don't tell me it's because it would be
'too expensive,' to live in a skyscraper that's been made out of an old bank-building,
---because ALL skyscrapers are expensive, and a lot of them also can be found in 'dodgy,' areas ta boot,
----yet they're filled
(especially ANY with clear views, like the bank building undoubtably has,) with people doing anything to get in.

Re: racism
What am I doing about it?

Well, as a pretty good sized moderately educated and semi-literate white guy (who also has a little native am. blood in me,)
I'm doing plenty, have done plenty, and will continue to do such.

-one thing around here, of which, a LOT of folks of my skin-tone are NOT doing, though:

-talking about the racism here that is so obvious,
-saying that it has to stop,
-has been holding the area back,
-and is a major part of why 'downtown,' has been abandoned and avoided by so much of the rest of the town.

the discussion went from 'wow, skyscrapers are cool, we should have some,
to:
why aren't there any here?
to:
why aren't there any downtown?
(now: 'why hasn't any of the big buildings that qualify as 'skyscrapers,' remained in good repair, (when the bank building evidently WAS an area skyscraper once upon a time...)

google 'white flight,' as an openner to the issue.
(Other folks can give you their take on it.)

I have other interests in life, sure, and have 'gotten over it (bigotry),' where it's been dealt with and people aren't defined by it.

Like it or not?, in some of those other areas of the country?
That is how Fresno is defined.

I mean, that was said before I came here, (across the country,)
and, lone and behold, guess what?
-I had no idea how true it was.

Is 'everybody,' like this.
No.
And I didn't say 'everybody was.'

I'm saying large crossections of society are.
I'm saying that I hear comments and opinions clearly stating this more often than not.
-and I'm really shocked that people would be so open about it, like they were just discussing what sort of bread they want their sandwiches made of...
THAT blatant.
(...at least they're not shy.)

Now,
Not talking about it?
Not seeing how it affects investing in certain parts of the town, (and completely ignores others?)

Just furthers the problem, and lets things go on 'like there is none,' and jams society and growth up further.

I’m into the skyscrapers. I like those pictures and think we could do it.
But what’s this about racism? I’m a Fresnan, and I’m not racist.
Yeah, racism does exist. Right here in our town. But who’s that guy
saying ‘Fresno’s Racist”...I’m Fresno and I’m not racist. Don't call everyone racist all at once.

I’ve been to towns like Chicago. I lived there for a while when I was a kid.
Ever seen “Home Alone”? Ever heard of “Wilmette”?
Some people live in places like that around there. Some people live
in places that aren’t nothing like that. Racism--people running away from other people--
it’s all over.
Here too.

Time to get over it.
The guy that’s going on and on about racism---get over it. What are YOU doing about it?

My aunt lives in NYC, ever been there? Some places are rich...some places are not.
Big surprise.

Just don’t call me ‘racist’---I have friends of all kinds of backrounds and myself?
I’ve got blood from several backrournds.
Be cool and try and FIX things.
What are YOU doing?

I LOVE these pics!! They looks so real..if only they were. I think the synergy of just one or two new skycrapers at 35-40 stories in height would do wonders for downtown. There are so many new office buildings on the northside. If the city really cared about downtown and not just in lining developers pocket books, couldn't they create some kind of building ordinance that would limit construction in the north and create incentives for downtown office construction? I would think something like that could really help. Financial services firms and things like that would be perfect for downtown. Pretty soon other busineses would want to locate along side them and then services and the synergy gets going. Also, downtown needs a new luxury hotel which would help lure bigger and better conventions to the new expanded convention center. I know the city tried to make this happen a few years ago but couldn't get the financing together. I think the plan was for a Wyndham Hotel. I imagine the economic benefits of a hotel such as Wyndham or Hyatt Regency would be incredible.

Good job on plotting those buildings in the downtown sceen..that would definetely be a dream for us..have tall towers in downtown...but it all goes back to economics; supply and demand, fresno's household income, vacancy rates. also politics can also take a blame, the willingness of taking risk in downtown Fresno.Developers are not willing to build tall towers in Fresno because they're afraid if the demand for the towers are not high, but i can guarantee you, if a developer builts a tower twice the height of the city's tallest now, they will come. would you imagine being on the 40th floor overlooking the valley..?that would be awesome.. In terms of population Fresno is larger than other important cities such as Miami, Atlanta and other eastern cities, but the skyline lacks compare to them.Im studying Architecture in a local college, and my greatest dream is to make fresno's tallest! :) lol..

~Central Cali 19~

Tall buildings: steel is required above four to five stories depending on the area’s codes. Six stories is the limit of any building outside the Downtown triangle, with exceptions of certain transit corridors in the City of Fresno building code where 10 stories or 150 feet is the limit.

Hotels Downtown? When there was talk of the PGA coming to town I did a search for high end hotel rooms: 3 luxury suites available at the Radisson.

Regarding the original transit oriented high density growth that built Downtown and what was created with the “freedom” the automobile industry provided for the real estate developers, it was part of a nationwide movement for sprawl. The wikipedia site for National City Lines is an interesting site for the history of what happened to many large cities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

How can Fresno recover from its dilapidated Downtown? First by recognizing its problematic issues. One of the issues is that Downtown is extremely difficult to get around in because everything is so unorganized in terms closed streets and you have to drive everywhere you go. The exception is perhaps Arthop where there are so many places to go you can’t even get to them all by the time the night is over. So then, could we say Arthop serves Downtown well?

Thank you Thereminman for that positively uplifting sermon rant: “I'm hoping this website can be a place of sharing *positive ideas* “.
In-fighting spawns a destructive pattern that spreads a useless division of creativity.

More to come...

When solving any problem, it does make sense to look for the 'root cause'.
Sometimes we might not agree as to what the root cause or root problem is.
Often, the problem might be more complex than that---have several causes.
The 'root' of the problem might have *several* strands that support one another. Sometimes we argue on here about what the 'real' cause is---what the 'real' problem with Fresno is...or whatever. Sometimes we pummel one another with words trying to convince each other that our preferred Root Problem is THE one.
And no matter what you argue, someone will pipe in (maybe justifiably) with a "well, none of that matters if we let that darn hole in the ozone keep growing"...or "ain't nothing gonna change anyway until we do 'X'"

My hope would be that those who think that unresponsive city government is the major Root Cause of Problem X---are *trying* to do something to fix that.

That those who think racism is the Root Cause of Problem X --are trying to do something about that.

and so on and so on...whether you think it's the out-dated paradigm of suburban sprawl, or the high school drop-out rate, or whatever.

I figure if we all encourage each other to work on our own little corner of the problem, many many many of the problems might diminish or disappear.

I'm hoping this website can be a place of sharing *positive ideas*
(and I've heard many on here)
and NOT just a place of egos battling over just who's Root Problem is the biggest.

THat sort of behaviour seems deeeeestructive to me, not constructive.
(Heaven knows, and I'm sure I'm guilty of this as much as anyone.)

No matter how 'right' I believe myself to be, does what I say *encourage*
or *discourage* people to continue in their efforts?

why?

because you felt it was good, and you felt that it was worth writing to begin with.
--THAT you teach the subject, means that somebody pays you who thinks you know enough to teach others, and lead them to think.
Okay, whaddya got?

Perhaps your post would have helped others to think as well, and I would probably get something from it, too.

You need to realize something, ed.

Everybody has a point worth stating (because, if nothing else, it gives them a voice, it gives them the opportunity to say something and collect their views and their heart into a public statement, ---and even IF it's 'the same as what everybody else is saying?
It's NOT, -because it's coming from THAT individual.)

That's a huge part of the problem here too...
(which is a strange thing to say, because if there ever was a town full of opinions -often based upon little experience... yeesh.)

But there are people always reading, always listening, and always 'wanting to say something,' -who have excellent views?
-But 'they just can't because of one reason or another...'

It's sorta like why I'm a little leery of putting a 'Hillary,' sticker on my car and truck.
-Though I have a right to express myself, and a right to have a view?
Some other clown is going to think it's their right to smash my windows and key my car. (which is a real possibility here.)
Fresno: long on opinion, short on boundary understanding and impulse/anger control. (maybe from the 'roids in the bovine squeezins?)

There is too much fear in this place based upon
'retaliation,' 'rejection of the greater group,' 'that I'll suddenly find myself on the outs,'
and 'social politics.'
--which directly feeds (sometimes in a good way,) some sort of 'upstart,' response to it, but seriously? It's a poor stimulus, and just causes folks to be co-dependant and reactionary.

What shocks the hell out of me?

I just express stuff that I'm seeing and hearing, and explaining how different it is from the other areas I've been in, ---and folks are like '...whoah, controversial, NOBODY talks like that,'
or
'I want to say that, but I just can't.'

Why?
Why can't people communicate openly about their lives here in Fresno?
(see my point?, maybe not, big deal.)

I have no doubt that you're going to write on about what you feel like, stir up pots, make remarks, retract them, (do whatever it is that you do, -hey go for it.)

I'll do the same.

But with a subject such as
'why the town grows, what happened to our downtown, what's up with skyscrapers (that are vacant.)

-Some of the answers are being avoided, some of them can even be blatantly addressed, (and then nothing done,) and all sorts of 'alternate,' truths will be presented.

That's how to build an terrarium with a bunch of gangs that don't know how to address issues, (just attack each other,) and pseudo-deep thinkers who walk around with leashes on and filed teeth.

This isn't about 'all bark-no bite, and endless prattle.'

This is about:
Finding the roots of the problem,
going after it clinically,
-dealing with it,
or just sitting and spinning the wheels and sociologically and municipally masturbating for another 60 years,(but don't worry, there will be skyscrapers and growth,
--just not in areas where people have to interract and dialogue where there's 'difference.'

-Publish your response ed,
---what's the worst that can happen?
Somebody calls you redundant, off topic, and long winded???
(...for seventy bucks, I'll teach you how to endure that one.)
It's not that difficult, really.

And seriously?
If you thought it was good?
It probably was.
At the very least, it would be one more voice, speaking honestly, and something for folks to read and consider, (or blow off,)

-but you never know who may find it encouraging, stimulating, and cause for difference.

But, personally?
I hear from people all the time who say 'they just can't say what they think on this issue, (and others.)'
-because they KNOW what will happen to them.
--And a lot of these people are freakin' GIANTS in terms of ethics, morals, and hard work, who make you and I look like complete ass-hats and posers.

That they're afraid to say and do anything.
Breaks my heart, and seriously pisses me off.

Change that?
Fresno changes.

--Sorta makes you wonder, though, do people really WANT change?

i teach an intro to sociology class. i actually constructed a very good response (in my opinion) for this thread based on what i teach about how cities have developed, but scrapped it because i saw other people's comments already covering much of it. so, thanks for the offer to front me $70 for a class, but it's not needed.

umm, what? i'm talking about my comments. not yours. settle down.

no one is "urinating" on your views. i did mention you in connection with ron paul because of a previous discussion thread here on famous. that discussion there, along with your comments here, reminded me of the interaction i recently had with some ron paul supporters (who i don't think represent all ron paul supporters). and, although i don't agree with all of your assessment of the fresno area in relation to downtown skyscrapers, i do think you're writing on topic.

i, on the other hand, am not.

gee ed... look at the line of the thread:

-we need skyscrapers downtown, they're cool!
-we used to have them, then everybody moved!
-why did everybody move? (various reasons given.)
--my posts on it?

-even though there are already (techincally,) skyscrapers downtown, they will be coming up in OTHER areas because people have moved,
-and they will not be looking to develop and continue with the skyscrapers (downtown,)
because folks have racial and social issues that dictate the growth, (though they'll just call it 'opportunity and easiest development potential.')
-I'm getting at the reasons behind the excuses given, and the way that the growth is being guided (and) the base buttons people are hitting to accomplish this.

-Yeah, I know, it's kind of a lot more personal and introspective than

'...The reason why we don't have skyscrapers downtown is because there are no reeeaallly tall buildings there, and we'll have them when there ARE reeeallly tall buildings there.'

but, you know, it all makes sense, if you relax your eyes a bit, and connect the dots,
(here, I'll give you a crayon and just draw from the big one marked 'A,' to the big one marked 'B,' ---think you got it from there?

Perhaps a sociology/civic planning or philosophy course could help?
I'll front you the 70 bucks...

'unrelated to the actual topic of the thread,'
--and yet you contribute comments and links to your buddy's blog connecting the same exact issues I wrote on... (and they're good links, btw.)
-that was genius...

But with that nullifying 'unrelated to the actual topic of the thread,' remark...

Gee, so mature,
so unifying and bonding,
makes me feel warm all over.
I just don't know how to thank you for that lovely cheap shot, (and from a fellow artist who happens to be a college professor who is all about trying to get others to 'think.')
Nice, really.

Have fun urinating on others views for a while, I need to step out and get some work done.
But I'll be back.

so, i'll give you two back story links even though they are unrelated to the actual topic on this thread.

out of the void.

(just stirring the pot here folks).

I really appreciate your perspective on this, (seriously.)

I'm dealing with what I'm seeing, sixty years after the end of WW2.

I'd like to view it as an innocent 'well, folks wanted to build up their versions of the American Way of Life,' and moved outward, ---which may have been a real draw.

But having studied and lived in such areas as the 'Levittowns,' (which is a fascinating study of 'how to create a culture, -as well as how to direct how cultures grow, societies, and neighborhoods build. (It's back east, but the premise is th same all over.)

I think, along with the opportunity of building one's own destiny in the 'burbs, ---there is definite planning and encouragement that panders to peoples prejudices and fears.

I am not a young man, nor am I a person of color. (even when I tan, it's pretty obvious to look and say '...okay German headed for skin cancer, NEXT.'

I have NEVER, in all my days seen the widespread cultural shifts and racial stances that I've seen here in Fresno. (And I've lived and have been close to folks in a lot of cultures.)

In the Mid-Atlantic states and the N.E. you had folks doing clandestine acts as showing only certain houses to certain cultures '...because we just figured that they would be more comfortable with their own kind.'
(bullshit, btw.)

When they developed certain areas of the boroughs of NY?
They deliberately left some streets narrow, and had overpasses too low, ---so that busses could not get out there, (why?) -it meant lower to mid class folks (who ride busses and can't afford private transportation,) would not be moving there...
--That sort of stuff went on back home, like seventy years ago, (it worked for a while, and it's been pretty much exposed for what it is.)

The reason why 'high-density' (skyscraper) housing often is not done? Yesterdays 'luxury high-rises,' far too soon become tenament projects (that's if they don't start out as projects to begin with, --another reason why high-rises don't happen out here that much, -nor apartment complexes for that matter.)

What I hear and see out here? (and I'm going on two and a half years,)
Blows my mind.

For such a small population (what, 500,000?) in the middle of freakin' nowhere,
---the fracturization and compartmentalization of the society of fresno is stunning.

I literally was sitting in a church the other week, (in Clovis,) and the pastor was like:
-'We need to go outside our 'comfort zones,' and find poor people and care for them...,
'We're surrounded by people who are doing as well, or better than us, and it's a temptation to fall into coveting and living beyond our means, we need to go to somewhere like the Pavorello house and see that there are poor people,
-In fact, we need to go to CHINA and help them to learn English, and help them to have schools...'

I'm sitting there thinking:
-Okay, not surround onesself with toys:
good.
-Not get caught up in materialism:
good.
-Consider the poor:
-okay that's a start.
-Go to Pov and help the homeless:
-good luck with that, but at least the word was mentioned.
-Then it's
'we're headed off to China.'

?

There is such a massive disconnect between those who have a decent set of wheels to drive, (I'm talking legal, can get from Pt. A to B,)
-have some sort of future due to schooling.
-are eating regularly
-have decent clothes to wear
-have a reasonable roof over their head

-and those who have 'none of the above.'
In this town?
It's shocking.
This is a tiny town (by city standards,) and yet it has such dramatic differences in the ways of life for the people who live in it. It's amazing.

And it's not some 'across the spectrum, you got your very wealthy on one end of the spectrum, and then waaaaaaaay over there on the other end? you got your poor, (with lots of folks living incrimentally inbetween.)

-This is 'no full spectrum deal,' here, bud.
People want to think that there's many shades and nuances, and variations, but in fact, it's
the haves,
the 'kinda haves,'
the 'have nots,'
and the
'oh, shit, you're still ALIVE's?'

Say what you want, but the NE of Fresno, the 'built up' areas of Fresno, and the wealthier areas of Fresno have nothing to do with the poorer areas.
-And it's not just
'we have no reason to go down there.'

I just don't see the innocence and terms of 'convenience,' that you're speaking of.
-I'm not saying that those reasons aren't valid.

--I'm saying that there are obvious other reasons behind it, and I hear them every day.

I think there has always been this schism.
That you see hispanics all over the place, (and just as many of them as whites?) good for you.
Just because 'they're here too,' does not mean that the cultures are intermingling. -by a long shot.

I see and hear, constantly an 'out of site-out of mind,' mentality for the areas
'below Hearndon,
below Shaw, and
DEFINITELY below Ashlan, ---by those who are living in 'better areas.'
--And I hear derisive remarks regarding people of color (be it brown, black, yellow, you name it.) by folks around here, --and it's quite startling.
(and truthfully? not much shocks me, like the Klan was handing out business cards in the city just below where I moved from in Upstate NY in the fall of 05.)

Nothing compares with what I hear and see out here all the time, nothing.

In no way could whites back east say the same things about people of color, (particularly african americans,)
-Like whites out here comment on people of color (particular those of Latin American Decent.)

-The African Americans (back east) will kick your ass,
-and that's ONLY after the other Whites do...
(We're not one big happy melting pot,
-but at least the dumbest and most twisted aren't stupid, and we don't let ignance thrive, we cannot afford it, and we've had our race riots in the sixties too, people have had to learn to get along.)

I've basically gotten used to being embarassed for my own skin color out here, based upon the things I hear expressed towards others.
(There is just no other way to say it.)

I think it is summed up quite easily:
Here in Fresno, you can be racist, sexist, classist, (you name it,) and more often than not?
Folks will not only NOT tell you that you're wrong,
---they'll agree.

They don't even bother hiding it.

You cannot have that going strong for over half a century, and tell me that it's not permenantly changed (possibly crippled,) how this town has grown,
---and will continue to do so.

This is my take on what happened here;

The post World War II era brought about a major boom in economy. Idustry grew, products became easier, faster, and cheaper to make, businesses grew as did people's wallets. Those with new money wanted new and trendy things, that includes houses. Due to the city government's "smart thinking," it became easier and cheaper to build 1,000 tract homes on the outskirts of the city than to build just one single residential tower (still is today), and businesses soon followed. The city's design, which was originally planned around transportation, changed and it soon became an inconvenience for people to leave their general neighborhood.

Now, as for us "white folk" who stay up north? We virtually have no reason to go south except for those who commute for work. Every single thing we want is just a block away. It isn't a matter of "cuz we're scared of colored people," when I go anywhere around here, I see just as many hispanics as I do white people. If downtown had more to offer, then I would probably be down there every day or even move there. And I dont mean more of what is already on every corner everywhere else in the city (Starbucks, Target, Movie Theatres, etc), I mean things like the Aquarium, a small theme park, and a high rise or skyscraper that I could live in without taking a chunck out of my wallet. But when it comes to those things, the city seems to just throw them around to random spots in town.

I truely believe that it would be better for the city to buy land in DT and then give it to people who are willing to build things that would actually make DT a better place (skyscrapers, aquarium, theme park, etc). People would want to go down there, creating more business and a higher RCI(residential, commercial, industrial) demand. The city would eventually make more off of the taxes and future development in the future than they are now.

Chris

a future to others...

"I'm here huckleberry..."

I can vouch for downtown, there is nothing wrong with the Fulton Mall. All the negative speak is just negative speak. As a whole the place is great. No reason to look to tiny things, like people who choose to live differently, to condemn the whole area. If you want something different downtown, come build it. I did. And I'm looking to help anyone else who wants to as well. Bring it. (note, I have no money, but I do know some people and know some of the processes)

Keep the ideas coming and alive. I'm trying to get on the board for the Downtown Association. Let's see what we can do.

Diablo

WORD!

-s

dude:

In Fresno? (so far) Six stories and inhabited is not just a 'skyscraper,' it's a vertical shangri-la.

You want this place to be 'not so far behind?'

You can chase the small fires and effects of the root issue, but the point I made about 'why and where,' there is building is way more valid than you realize.

The reason why 'downtown,' is 'deserted,' and why people
'not of color,' are fleeing out of there?
Because they have 'issues,' with 'people of color.'

Who knows, maybe it was the agricultural mindset:
'...the farmworkers stay in those shanty's over THERE, and the owners stay in the Farm HOUSE over HERE.'
'...this ain't California, this is Mexi-fornia.'

etc. etc.

You can chase after the reasons all day long, but the main thrust of the issue is:
This place is severely 'un-matriculated,' --and yet claims to be 'multi-cultured.'
(let me give you a tiny slice of American History (too) that has been a constant, some from here, some not.)

-When they bought and sold slaves to take care of plantations in the S.East? -that was a 'multicultural event.'

-When they were knocking the Irish off the gangplanks as they came into the harbors with cobblestones? -that was a 'multicultural event.'

-When they hauled the kids out of the Catholic orphanages, and then burned the places down? -that was a 'multicultural event.'

-When they assimilated all the native americans into one common blob, and made them walk West? (trail of tears) -that was a 'multicultural event.'

-When they rejected the 'okies,' as they tried to come across during the dustbowl era? -that was a 'multicultural event.'

-When they rejected Armenians, Portugese (etc.) from 'proper towns,' and forced them onto the outskirts? -That was a 'multicultural event...'

Fresno calls itself a 'multi-cultural,' region,
---and yeah, there are tons of cultures here,
---but they've been ostracized or avoided/avoiding each other,
---and have been this way, for so long?
People think it's normal.

-Yeah, it's cool when you find people who are all stoked about it, (such as in Kingsburg, with it's 'high Swede Rate,' Or other parts 'ChinaTown,(during the parade,) where everybody loves it, (justifiably so,)
But it's far too fickle, (Chinatown a perfect example.)
----In areas where the people have NOT been easily accepted, it's more isolation, than celebration.
People just don't get that... the same mindset can be incredibly good, or incredibly bad.
It's 'separatist.'
-Now there's nothing wrong with people living with each other when their culture is close, and they enjoy and understand each other, -and welcome other cultures (that's cool, that's how you EXPERIENCE cultures in a positive sense outside of their national and regional borders,)

But when it's 'ghetto-izing,' folks, -that's sick.

People blew out of downtown, and don't go onto the Fulton Mall (etc.) because they are afraid of people who are of color, don't have much money, are of different religous practices, -and who are not upper-mid class and protestant.
--Also?
There is also a huge problem here where Mexicans are looked down upon, and 'that section,' of town is largely mexican.

If you people believe in karma? You're screwed.
-Because you've been jamming the brown folks and considering them (not) as equals, -but as 'migrant workers,' or 'landscapers.'
If things level out? you have hell to pay.

If you're into God?
-Well, you're not screwed,
-but you need to repent, stop this hatred and stupidity, and make ammends and get off yer high horse and just mix it up with people who are not 'just like you.'
You have hell to unbuild.

You see, -the upper Blackstone corridor (Friant and 41) is going to build up, and it's going to be beautiful.
---Other areas currently under construction are going to be the same...
--And they're going to build things as tall or as wide as they want.
SO LONG as the people who have the money, are also the people who have the pull, and who can attract more of the same, -or better.

But it's an economy and development based upon 'certain folks get to live HERE,' and 'certain folks live over THERE.'

-You mix the 'THERE folks, with the 'HERE folks, ---and the HERE folks freak out, get all scared, dislike the music and the food, -and they bounce up to where they can build their own sanctuary.

You can go after all these other reasons and situaitons (public transportation and all,)
-and that's fine and dandy, ----but it's not going to ammount to a hill of beans, (nor grow,) until the people in power who have the money are (further) benefitted, and their way of life is somehow enhanced.

This area is kind of 'what's (more) in it for ME.'
--So, like any other big baby, you give them some candy, give them a toy or two, make'em happy, ---and then you get on with business why they're sitting there all self-absorbed.

I think these other areas are going to be built up and helped,
-but ONLY if the main focus is somehow making the 'good life - BETTER,'
--and helping the poorer sections, the abandoned sections, the 'less desirable sections,' will always abe a byproduct.

But it's never going to be a whole bunch of folks in the nice part of town looking down to (what 'used to be nice,') and saying
'...dayum, bubba, we're just lettin' folks go to pot, and starve, we gotta do somethin' it ain't right.'

It's going to be '...I have such sweet memories of that building, and how downtown used to be, lets restore it so my memories are warm and comfortable.'

-They don't even SEE the people who are down there (currently,) as anything more than (moderate) caretakers of their nostalgia (at best,)
or
unnattractive low-class lawn ornaments, cluttering up their memories (at worst.)

That's why when they talk about 'revitalizing an abandoned downtown,' you really have to watch what is being said, -there is a whole huge crossection of folks, who can call the shots in this place, who are looking at people (who most definitely are there, and are priceless BECAUSE they exist, ---yet they're saying '...there's nothing there, gee really we need to DO something.'

-Folks need to wake up and deal with the smell of their own upper lip.

Just to clarify, there are no skyscrapers near Friant & 41 and I dont think there ever will be. Too much land has been wasted building huge parking lots around them (why didnt they build underground parking?). The tallest building there is 6 stories (the one right next to the freeway which is also the most recently completed) and that cannot be called a skysraper or highrise, it can be called a "midrise" building at best. I believe the city has height restrictions of 10 stories for any building outside of downtown including along the 41 corrider. Am I wrong? If so I cant see why these buildings wouldn't be taller. You dont see anything more than 5-6 stories anywhere in the city outside of downtown. People keep mentioning the cost, well if only developers would try to think of the cost in terms of space rather than dollars we would see a much different city. Fresno really needs to begin to look upward. Not only in downtown but everywhere. There is so much prime farmland that has already been eternally wasted. I can only hope that the city will finally consider putting the breaks on this unsustainable growth patern that has not only wasted space but made Fresno into a flat and ugly city over the past century. Other cities have realized this and are making changes. Fresno appears to be so far behind.

What about plans I read a few years ago about for a new hotel near the convention center. Fresno needs a true full service 4 star hotel. How does the "Hyatt Regency Fresno" sound? I can't believe a city this size can only offer a Radisson and a soon to be Holiday Inn (former Hilton) as its best hotels. Pathetic. What about all the tourists who pass through to Yosemite? The big name entertainers that come to town? A hotel like this would attract these people and more. It would thrive downtown. A hotel like this would probably be 30 stories in height.

There's tons of vacant space in existing hi rise buildings in downtown. Until the market demands it, you won't see much additional supply.

My mother always asks me why we don't have more skyscrapers downtown. If I could think of three things that prevent the proliferation of more skyscrapers downtown, it would be the following:

1) Money. It's quite expensive to go tall. Buildings over 2-3 stories in height require steel rather than wood frame construction, which can be quite costly. Also, when constructing a building several stories in height, it has to be structurally engineered (in California, at least) to withstand the greatest earthquakes, winds, etc. This also adds quite a large sum to the cost.

2) Policy. Many cities have what we call in planning jargon, a "floor-area-ratio", or FAR requirement in their zoning policies. This means that you must build X square feet of floor area for every Y square feet of lot area. The higher the minimum ratio, the more intense the lot must be developed. What this equates to in real life, is that if you have a lot of 20,000 square feet downtown, and a minimum FAR of, let's say 10, then for this lot, you would have to have a minimum building of 200,000 square feet. Taking into account building setbacks, landscaping requirements, possible open space/courtyards on the site-- the only way to go is up. And really high up, at that. Many large cities use this tool to encourage a certain type of growth in different areas of town. Unfortunately in Fresno, this is not the case (at least, yet!).

And my last point...

3) Land. It's a whole lot easier to build a skyscraper on a larger parcel up north in the Friant/Audubon area than to try to acquire a few small parcels downtown to make a viable project happen. Not to mention, that the Redevelopment Agency will be right there hinting at their ever-present powers of eminent domain. Once again, taking into account parking requirements, setback issues, lot coverage requirements, and so on, it is much easier to build up north than it is downtown, as a developer. In the City's General Plan skyscrapers are not only encouraged downtown, but also along the Freeway 41 corridor. So downtown definitely doesn't have the monopoly on that one.

Now, you don't think I would throw out these problems without posing solutions, would you?

Well, as far as money goes, my hands are tied-- but we can try to use our economic development skills (?) to lure some higher tech industries with money downtown. Good luck Economic Development Department.

And policy? With that I can say, there are people who are thinking of these ideas within the City. And they need more support and encouragement from you all who care. And lobbyists to the decision makers for promoting minimum FAR requirements.

Land? I can't really change that one, either. I can say, however, that if we consolidate parking requirements downtown (developers just contribute money to building more parking structures rather than having to build huge parking lots on-site) that would make it a whole lot easier to utilize the small parcels downtown and build these tall buildings.

I hope to say that in 10 years, we have a few more tall buildings downtown. My mom, at the very least, would be jumping for joy...

Jpatrick, I would definitely like to see that map. Yeah, private funding is the way to go. The system at CyberTran.com looks great, 150mph wow! Here are a few questions I have.

According to centraltransit.com "Central Transit & Development Corp is able to privately finance and build the entire transit system."

Does that mean the funds are available as of right this second?

Has this been brought to the attention of the city gov't?

Has this been brought to the local media as well? It would have great benefits to gain the support of the public.

And last but not least, what can I do to help? Seriously. I would love to be part of any development in the Fresno area. And i desire no extra cash in my wallet for it, I am just a guy with a vision and passion for Fresno and its advancement.

-Chris

No doubt about racism and class-ism being part of the great leap-frog migration northward--they used to call it 'white flight'...not sure if they do anymore---but, unfortunately,
to some folks--the arrival of people of color (to the them, the "other") sends them running off to look at model homes at the newest instantsubdivision in no time flat.
My belief is that we coupled this with open tracts of land, and we rapidly bred the town we look at today--with The Money often so far from Downtown...that they don't necessarily see it as 'their town'---and they want their businesses and offices and orthodontists and tall buildings close to them in *their* town.
Without some sort of structural change....why would there
ever be a NEED for more tall buildings downtown?
[this is from someone who's all for 'structural change']

I'm noticing a bit of a trend...
Like, the woodward park area (Friant and 41)
ya gotcher some pretty tall and swanky buildings going on right there not too far on the Madera Border, (with some pretty heavy iron in terms of corp offices and such squattin in those joints, heart hospitals, etc...)

ditto (a little)
down in upper Old Fig.

Soooooo, they're building buildings and building swanky buildings that go more than two stories, awright...
They're just doing it up in the stomping grounds of RichieRich.

There's a new sheriff, er, beltline in town...
It's called 'Hearndon.'

It's a financial/racial thing, bubba, I keeps tellin' ya.
Folks are afraid that if they go too far down in 'no-mans-land,' that they're gonna get rabies or the plague, or typhoid or fleas or hepatitis or muggered or something...
(like, suddenly they'll come out from a business, and find the BMW up on 22's, or with a full hydraulics kit, dragging it's tail like a german shepherd across the yard (with 'tha-itch.)

pity.

All the other cities I mentioned previously on Emporis with much taller buildings than Fresno also have extreme sprawl surrounding their downtowns (look at Sac for example). Yet, they all have a better downtown. I dont blame this on the automobile it is simply Fresno's inability to recognize itself as the city it can be and to actually pay attention to its outward appearance. Skyscrapers that come into the view of 99 travelers would do wonders to this city's image.

Security Bank building was once the tallest building in the 1920's on the west coast.

The State of California is behind too, you would think this state and the entire west coast would have a modern railroad system to travel around like Japan has, yes their rail system is a lot more modern than ours.

But Japan still Whales under the guise of Cetacean research, I wonder if their modern technology is running on whale oil and ambergris.

Tōkaidō Shinkansen line has been around for over 40 years, and what does California have to show?

If I really want to get critical the world is over 1000 years behind of technology, if the Romans would have experimented more with steam power, just imagine where we would be at today.

To Famous Guest; re: “How can this be that we are so behind on our tall buildings?” The reason is simple, due to the status-quo method of real estate development which emanates its focus on the automobile, the profit-only oriented sprawl developments produce a quick turn-over ROI (Return on Investment) with low cost farm land.

Built in 1923, Fresno’s Security Bank building was the tallest and most expensive building that was built in the entire decade of the 1920s west of the Mississippi. Fresno’s original growth was built upon its transit system which allowed high density growth, like every other big city in the world.

Regarding environmentally sustainable regional growth, the area’s transportation has to be sustainable; and in today’s world it also has to be convenient as well as cost effective. Central Transit & Development Corp has proposed a project that provides sustainable growth. Due to the environmental issues in combination with its opportunities in real estate, the project has gathered a tremendous amount of interest from large scale development groups. Its proposal calls for a development with three thirty story high rise towers at the same location that the RDA is so excited about giving to Forest City. Central Transit’s project would use the site as its Downtown Transit Station location.

Chris, regarding drawing up a monorail design please go to www.centraltransit.com Let me know and I’ll send you the map of a complete 325 mile system for Central California. Oh yeah, and this advanced technology transit plan is privately funded: requiring no raising of taxes.

Yeah we do need REAL SKYSCRAPERS! I have been waiting for them my entire life! No more screwing around.

What I don't get it is, there are single and double story office complexes being built on almost every corner of the streets all over the city. The developers are taking acres upon acres to build these things and are wasting so much space with multi-buildings with huge parking lots. Why don't these guys get together, put in money that would amount to around $60 million or even less, and build a 30 story in downtown? COME ON! With enough advertising and low rent (at first), people would flock to it. The city needs incentives, after incentives, after incentives, and then advertise their incentives and land all over the country, or even the world. Make it easier to build a 30 or 40 story building in downtown than to build a bunch of single stories everywhere.

Lol, those "more like this" pics are funny, but the air quality has dramitically improved actually. Especially lately with all the rain and wind, it has looked quite beautiful for the past few months.

Im going to start another thread on the monorail issue, once im done drawing up a design.

-Chris

The Old Armenian Town development's tallest tower is proposed at just 17 stories (per Emporis). Where are the proposal's for REAL skyscrapers like 30 or 40 stories. Again all other metros our size have them, why cant we? I have to wonder if there is some sort of height restriction? Hmmm. You are right about the Federal Courthouse and that "Tower" building. They are awfully spread out..coincidence?