I have heard that the LeMoore Show still exists, but that wasn't confirmed (but I was told that there is a show once a year,) --A lot of bases actually do yearly shows, and it's a great chance to see aircraft that you'd never otherwise get a chance to be around (It's were I got a chance to crawl around my first B-52, and get up close to an F-117 (in Willow Grove, Pa.)

-There are liabilities to having the general public at bases and around the equipment,
(folks do dumb things sometimes, just out of ignorance (not malice,) -and planes are equipment that you can hurt yourself on (a kid at WillowGrove, one year, in a parked fighter/trainer (a Tweet)
-managed to activate the ejection seat, putting himself through the canopy of the plane, -somehow he managed to make it out with sustainable injuries,
-but still it was kinda an eye openner.)

-With the recent clamp down in security (post 9/11) a lot of public interraction with active military equipment and bases has stopped, or become more 'focussed,' in what they let folks see and not see.
-Also: bases are extremely restricted whenever a country is at war, -so I have a feeling a lot of the opportunities to see stuff that we had in the 70's through 90's are not going to happen again for some time.

Regarding the P-61 'Black Widow,'
-Talk about a California Girl...
-It's funny you should mention it, she's a total fave of mine as well, (complete hotrod, if you get a chance look up some of the stories about how the plane was 'shopped,' to the pilots and crews who were assigned to her,
-Because it was only a twin engined platform, a lot of the guys assigned to it weren't as comfortable, and the whole 'night fighter,' thing... (along with it's size, I mean, it's huge, but it's kind of like an overgrown P-38, which in and of itself is a big bird.)

-This hesitation to her acceptance was handled by one of the Test Pilots (A civilian,) who actually went from station to station, and would take the 'most seasoned,' on down pilots up in a standard issue P-61.
-Right off the deck, (shortly after rotation point,) he'd pull up and proceed to put the plane through an unreal series of aerobatics, then kill one engine and do a few more, and then land it, (whole time staying relatively close to the ground, and in full view of the aircrews who were on the ground, (who needed a bit of 'convincing' that the plane was as good as the hype.)

-I don't think there is any footage of the run this guy did, time after time, -but by all written accounts, each squadron came away once he was done with a new-found respect for the plane, realizing that they were assigned something that was not just very reliable, -but vicious in it's capabilities.

-One final (weird) fact about the Black Widow?
Though they were initially painted black and/or olive drab? It was found that, in a searchlight, they were easier to see due to a sort of glow that would happen in the light (due to the paint,)
---so the later models they just left buffed aluminum,(which, odd as it sounds, was harder to see in a searchlight... total opposite of what you'd think.)

-There is a Black Widow on display out in Ohio at the Wright-Pat. Airforce Museum (it may be one of two,)
-but it's been sitting there since I was a boy.
(It doesn't fly.)

-But:(drum roll please,)
-One of the branches of the Conf/Commem AirForce (possibly the main base in Harlington,) has been restoring a P-61 to flying status,
-and may be done by now.

'Gathering of Warbirds,'
is a phrase I've seen many times, I know there was usually a section (I'm going back to the mid-late 80's and into the early 90's) where most shows on military bases had a separate area where the WW2 stuff would be, (usually you had to pay to get into that area, but the cost was like only 8 to 10 bucks or something, and it was worth it.)

-I am not sure if what you're referring to as 'Gathering of Warbirds,' is an actual group (a show, kind of like a travelling circus,) of planes that would tour (which is done a lot, actually,)

-or if it was a scheduled gathering time.
(They just had a 'Gathering of Corsairs,' and a 'Gathering of Mustangs' (which was hundreds of Mustangs, actually.)

--What may have been the situation was, it could have been a flying collection of planes, and either a smaller collection (owned by one or a couple of folks,)
-or it could have been an 'airwing,' (a branch,) of a larger group, which would be listed as a flying museum, ----and they could have been stationed out here, as the weather is so much better, and more predictable than other parts of the country.
-It sounds like an actual incorporated for-profit, or non-profit (flying museum,) group though.
-And truthfully? Despite the pricelessness of the planes, ANY airplane is the fastest way to turn money into noise, and it may have been a business enterprise that simply folded due to lack of funds. (This is also why so many airlines, (since airlines have been created,) are functioning in various forms of bankruptcy at any given moment.)

-Also:
Because of their size, and constant upkeep, the planes are usually stored in states and locations that are kind of remote, so they can be worked on when 'off tour.'
-Because they are so expensive, and because airport security is often kind of, well, um,,,, lets just say that a lot of airports are used in sentences that go like:
'...Hey lets go get us some girls and some _____ and go out to the airport outside of town and...'
(or the ever-so famous 'airport road,' obligatory drag racing scene in a lot of movies...)
(disclaimer: being a former airport employee of two 'remote,' airports back east, -and hang-around of many others, I simply will say '...I know notheengk...')

-Airports that are housing historic and expensive iron (and all planes these days are expensive,) tend not to advertise that the planes are there, (they're kind of in hiding.)
-So it's very likely that the planes are still around, just not heavilly publicized

Names to google in terms of 'finding out where the planes are,' would be

'Commemorative Air Force,' (they used to be called 'Confederate Air Force,'
(they have listings of planes and smaller branches that are located all over the country, (sometimes just a single plane being worked on by a few dedicated guys over a course of years.)
----Note: this is a great way to get involved with actual restoration or contributing to the restoration and really be up close and personal with one of these old girls, as they are usually non-profit orgs. ALWAYS in need of funds, and usually, don't mind assistance (if you know how to build or paint,)
-always need financial supporters (and, again, the age level of the craftsman will surprise you,
-I was involved in building and restoring stuff as far back as 16, -and when I was 17 I was building things next to 80 some odd year old retired Zeppelin Pilots (from Germany.)
-It's a great way to really be a part of preserving history and learn skills that you won't otherwise.

-Another name to look up would be 'Steve Hinton.'
(He's kind of the grown up 'wonderkid,' of pilots, (he checks out more new-restored warpplanes, and has (and is found in more magazines,) than I think anyone,
(he also either owns or is involved with a group called (I think)
'Fighter-Rebuilders.' (also based in Ca.)

-There used to be a lot of planes and restoration work down in Chino,
-but I've been reading that a lot of those facilities have moved to other places (not sure.)
---But a lot of restoration efforts are still happening in California.

Another neat search would be to look up
Paul Mantz - Frank Tallman
(they collaborated and started 'Talmantz' productions.)
---These were two of the greatest pilots of all time, (Paul Mantz was killed unfortunately in the late 60's while trying to fly a 'pieced together,' plane in the movie 'Flight of the Phoenix,' (it was recently remade, (the movie.)
-And it's Paul Mantz who flew the Twin Beach through the billboard in 'Mad-Mad-Mad-Mad World.'

-Anyway, these two guys, right after the second World War, bought a ton of planes that were being decomissioned by the Govt (and saved them from the scrapyard.)
-The planes were being sold only for their scrap-metal (aluminum,) worth, ---so they got them for so cheap it was sickening. (Keep in mind, once the war was over, they were just shovelling planes off of aircraft carriers and/or crunching them up fast as you could say it, -because there was such a glut of 'low-to no-time' airplanes just sitting there.'
-The story goes that the planes were bought from the govt, flown over here to California, ---and all the money was made back, and then some, simply by selling the left over fuel that was in their tanks...
-This 'private airforce,' (they had enough planes to recreate whole squadrons and airwings of fighters, bombers, you name it,
-was used in tons of films (with either a few or several planes at a time,) being hired by the movies, ---along with modified former bombers that were used as airborne camera platforms (with directors chairs,) so that all scenes could be choreographed and shot 'live,' in air.

-As time went on, a lot of those planes (which were considered expendable,) got crunched up or fell into disrepair, -but a bunch survived too.
(I'm wondering if some of them made their way into what was the local 'gathering of Warbirds.')

I personally,
though I like full on restorations that are 'factory correct and perfect,'
-tend to really like to find them 'as they are now.' or 'as-is,' condition (non-restored)
(You'd think the opposite, since I'm always restoring stuff.)

One of the facilites I was able to visit, (the Smithsonians restoration facility 'Silver Hill,' in Md.) has a ton of planes just sitting there, in the condition that they were found in, (which can be kind of shabby, with WW (war-weary) on them somewhere.

-But to me there is something more beautiful about a plane that has just managed to hang on all this time, and still has it's well-earned character,
(even if it's just lying there, 'sleeping' having crashed decades ago.)

Why?
-A 'non restored,' (anything)
Shows:
--these were active pieces of machinery, always in a state of repair,
--This work was done 'on site-in theatre,' with whatever they could build with)
--the work on them was not always the prettiest, and they really show a lot of attention to very few goals:

-fly correctly and dependably, (bring their crews home safe.)
-do their job
-and the relationship of them to their pilots, and the pilots and crew to their personal lives, folks they loved back home, the commeraderie while serving, and just trying to make sense of what they were doing.

There is something very moving to see a huge oil dripping beast, parts taken from other planes, with a pilots girlfriend's name painted on the side,
seeing that in the middle of the job, they had to stop and restart the paintwork,
-as they had to fly another mission.

It's a very heartfelt, and emotional thing, put on 'as good as they could,' that was some way of a bunch of extremely talented,
yet terrified teenagers,
trying to make sense of what they were in the middle of, (and those themes were consistant:
-home, hometowns, pets, humor, cartoon characters(lots of disney,)
-popular songs you could dance to,
and girls,
(particularly girls who were chesty in various forms of attire... I'm getting the impression that the physique 'curves,' was more desired during these eras than today...)

I don't think you'll ever see anything so loved as a plane to her crew,
-yet anything that they wanted to get away from and be done with (and back home, safe,) as a plane to her crew, either...

Though nobody's asked:

One of the aspects of WarPlanes that both myself, and my Father (who's done some incredible renderings of them (though he's retired, he's a professional artist, and has been doing various planes for the past 60+ years,)
-is that all of these planes were essentially platforms by which those who were in them were able to kill other people.
-My Dad (Korean War Vet, United States Marine Corps.) and I are both Christians, -and a big part of that is NOT killing folks.

-There were a lot of years and a lot of discussions we had in terms of what it was that we were doing in working with, representing, or promoting in terms of what these planes meant. (We are just not into killing people anymore, -and though we were both trained how to do such things, (legally,) -our beliefs are now all about trying to preserve and restore life.

We finally,
(separately, over the years, and after a lot of prayer,)

came to some really similar conclusions, (which is sort of different, considering that most folks tend to delineate how different they are from their parents and such, until they grow up:

-During the Second World War, there were unbelievable strides made in all aspects of flight that brought us from being flying cave-men, to (literally,) the moon... That's astounding to me.

-These planes, though designed as weapons platforms, were built with the intent to protect our country, (it's people,) as well as our allies against other countries that were attacking either us,
-or looking remove others freedoms and peaceful ways of life,
(and in some cases, such as the Nazi Era: remove entire crossections and cultures (entire races,) of life.
-The guys who flew these things were motivated by one thing and one thing only: To do the right thing and care for their country, (their people,)

-and no doubt, (as any person who has seen war or attack,) experienced stuff that is devestating and forever changing for them, (I know what this is like, so does my Dad, Step-Dad, and a lot of relatives,)
-and I am personally convinced that, because of their sacrifice and willingness to serve,
we, in our own countries, in this generation have a better life today, and have freedoms (even the freedom to criticize,) only because of their efforts.
(So the planes are a memorial to that and that effort.)

What is so incredible?
Now that we've gotten so many years away from this time, and the pilots and men who served (on opposite ends of the war,) can now sit and talk with each other?,
is how they all (now,) will bond so quickly.

-There are tons of occasions happening in recent years, where former fighter pilots and bomber pilots from 'enemy,' countries,
(US, Germany, Japan, Italy, Great Britain, etc.)
get together, embrace, and weep.
-And share that bond of believing in something, uniquely understanding that they were simply doing what they thought was right, and really having no other option.
-They are open about how such a sense of honor and devotion to one's own people transcends the evil, (and live in that.)

Bottom Line?
All of these 'Aces,' from all these different sides come down to one common love as well, their planes and just flying,

(And, though it sounds cliche' and fairy tale?
-It's extremely true:
you watch some of these old guys when they fire up one of their aging aircraft, and get around or inside them, their faces change, their movements suddenly melt back to 50 and 60 years ago, and the planes 'know,' them and perform differently.
It's an amazing experience to be a part of, I cannot explain it, but will tell you it's completely true, and I've witnessed it dozens of times.
(I've seen it with old Stock-Car drivers as well.)

They all have a definite first hand belief that killing is wrong, hate having had to do so, and will say that war is too costly,
-that anything else should be tried first,
-but that sitting and doing nothing, (with one's own country and one's people under attack,) is worse.

Of all the veterans I've been around, since a kid, I don't think I've ever met one who's ever 'loved war,' or 'gloried it,'

-it's that they understand that sacrifices have to be made sometimes, and were willing to step up and do it,
(often times not even knowing what they were getting into.)

In truth, when you've been in a situation like that?
-Part of it stays with you,
and part of you stays there,
there is no way around it.

So, with that understanding, I look at these pieces of equipment,
each one loaded with soul and personality,
as respected veterans who,
though I may not agree with all their methods and actions?,
--am really grateful for, and think should be loved and respected truthfully for their efforts.
(If we loose them, and their 'why?' -we've thrown away something that a lot of men and women died believing in, that they felt (and still feel) was important.

One of the greatest WW2 fighter pilots for Germany
(a decorated ace,) used to just do aerobatic glider demonstrations, well into his senior years,
and was quoted, (though he was very quiet,)
when asked
'...which country had the better pilots?)
-He'd answer, with great respect, 'we were all good pilots, we just returned home do different airfields.'

I'd say that we, as a generation are loosing this touch in terms of meaning and conviction, (which would be sad, and I used to say was a great loss.)

-But as I spend more time with folks who have come back home from our current war, I find myself thinking and praying in two ways:

1. -That they would be understood, loved by their families, friends, bosses, and country BEYOND understanding, (because war screws you up, and you don't come back the same, we're going to spend the next several decades helping our current troops and thier families with that.)

2. -And I really wish that they didn't have to experience it all first hand to begin with,
and personally hope to help them adjust back to a time where a noisey helicopter or jet flying over head was just that, simply a noisey helicopter or jet, (not reason hit the deck or hope you don't trigger back into a time of horror so many years, or just a few months, ago.)

The warbirds was more of an airshow that exhibited (mostly) WWII aircraft. It was at Fresno for a while, then it moved up to Madera. I think the official name was "the gathering of the warbirds." I can remember quite a few B-25s and P-51s and at least one B-24. But I never saw a B-29 or a B-17 or anything really exotic like a P-61 (my favorite model to build as a kid!). In fact, I don't think there are any flying P-61s left. Maybe it was because everyone had a grandparent who fought (and I mean everyone) and they would take grandpa to see these old planes, but it seemed more common place then.

The 144th FW and the national guard base on the north end of FAT were always really good about letting kids come out and tour the equipment. I don't know if they let kids do it now, but I can remember going into the room with the radar screens and getting up close to an F-4 under repair. The guys who worked there seemed to enjoy showing kids around.

The national guard used to fly Hueys out of Fresno, which were much louder than the current Blackhawks. You could hear the Huey's (UH-1) distinctive rhythmic thumping long before you could see it. I never thought about it until just now, but for the Veitnam vets on my block (again, almost everyone's dad did some time in SE Asia), it must have been pretty chilling to hear noise.

North of the terminal, on Clovis Avenue, there used to be a depot of Army equipment. There was an old Patton tank, painted green, that sat in the back. Seeing it was the highlight of any trip down Clovis.

I grew up under the flight path of the F-4s, which were also much louder than the current F-16s. I remember my dad taking great relish in telling me that if the Russians ever attacked us, one of their first targets would be the air terminal since the 144th FW partoled the entire southern half of the US west coast.

Even FAT itself played a big role in WWII. It was built as Hammer Field and was a training based for B-24s. In fact, someone recently found the wreckage of a lost B-24 from Hammer Field up in the mountains. Also, I think there is another B-24 under Huntington Lake.

http://www.461st.org/PDFs/June%201992.pdf

There was also an air show that used to be at NAS Lamoore once a year. That was the first place I saw the Blue Angels. They also had a lot of jet aircraft. Does anyone know if Lamoore still puts on an air show? Are there any air shows left in the Valley?

I'm actually an East Coaster (Tri-State Area,) so most of my plane connections and such are from like, 3000 miles away.

(Pappy Boyington was the squadron leader of a bunch of F4U corsairs (or FG1 corsairs) that were based out of the pacific.)

-Most of the planes that were used in that series (there actually weren't that many,) -were owned by (I think,) David Talichet (Talichet had a series of 'themed,' restaurants that had a crashed plane on the outside and was usually made up to look like some sort of european farm house, with a lot of airplane memorbilia.
(Philadelphia had the 94th AirSquadron, I think there were several others around the country at varying airports.)
---He owned a lot of airplanes too, (still might,)

-Great shots of the 'Baa-Baa-Blacksheep,' corsairs can be found on Budd Davissions site (SkyBum) and many of the planes still exist, they've just been further restored.
-I think the Japanese fighters depicted were actually the converted US trainers (Harvards, Texans, Vultees) that were reconfigured to look like Japanese FighterBombers.
-They still exist too, and are part of the Commemorative (Confederate) AirForce ---which has branches all over the place.

Though I'm not familar with 'the Warbirds,'(as a show?) per-se,
--my father (who had been out here through Fresno and the Central Valley Area, like thirty plus years ago, (maybe once or twice more recently,)
-Told me of a story of driving along one of the highways around here, (he was not sure of the town,) to which he saw a bunch of Texans (AT6's Trainers) all lined up on a ramp, and painted in German Fighter markings. (pretty weird.)
-There was a guy there, so he stopped and asked about it, and he was told that there was another airport not far from there, where they had their texans all painted up in US markings. (and that both sides would trade markings and swap out different countries from time to time.)
-The routine was, every so often they'd all get together and do mock-dogfighting with simulated and 'historic,' aerial moves (as much as you can get out of a Texan, they're not exactly swift and agile,)
-But that they'd go at it like a bunch of buddies playing football from the neighborhood.

-(Was THAT warbirds?)
-He never knew the whole backstory, -and he just told me about this over the past year or so.

I know that there are a lot of great restorers down in Southern California, and that they put on a show once in awhile,
-I am told that Castle Airbase not only has a static display that is quite impressive, -but that they also have an airshow.

-Interestingly enough, there was a (Hawker) SeaFury that used to race over at Reno called 'Miss Merced.'

The Rutan Brothers are evidently from right around here, (the guys who did all the work with cannard homebuilts (AND) did the most notable recent 'private,' space flight (with the rocket powered plane.)

Great places to catch tons of planes are
-The EAA Oshkosh fly in (out in Wisconsin,)
-The Commemorative (Confederate) airshow out in Harlington Texas (probably the biggest and most elaborate 'Warbird,' gathering over all, ----and they have branches all over the US too.)
-There's actually a really cool little airshow over in Sparta NJ, (which was started as a fly in by Budd Davisson back when he used to live there, (he's since relocated to Arizona or Nevada or something.) -but the show still goes strong.
-And, just above NYC in the area of RhineBeck, NY,(Hudson Valley,) there is Old RhineBeck Airdrome, ---and they fly exclusively WW1 era planes, ---but the catch is, they are almost all reproductions, (but they have a really cool collection put on a neat little show, and have been a 'family,' business for quite some time, --if you're ever there during the summer, spring or fall, it's a great way to kill a day, (and it's pretty country too.)

--And, believe it or not, if you want to see lots of really cool aircraft still working?

Alaska.
--There are more planes up there than just about anywhere else,
---and tons of stuff winds up flying up there to die, or to remain active forever and ever.

Overall, airplanes are hellishly expensive to operate, and require constant attention, --as well as maintaining of hours and upkeep of one's certs.
-One of the problems with Warbirds (or other high-performance aircraft,) -is just that, they are very 'hot,' or high-perf. machines.
-They guys who were trained to fly them, ---who know what to do with them in any situation , ----are all getting much older. (so they're not flying so much.)
-The guys who have the money to own and fly them, (often wealthy professionals,) ---don't always have the airtime and the experience to really handle a fighter or bomber correctly (there is a whole division of highspeed aircraft (even in the private/civilian sector,) that we used to call 'Doctor-Lawyer Killers.'
---Because you'd get some guy who had lots of bucks, ---but not enough seat time to really handle their machine properly, ---(but they had the bucks,) ---so they'd go and fly, get in over their head, and crash.

There are a lot of exceptions to this, and I'm always surprised to find out how many athletes, politicians and media personalities are also accomplished pilots. (John Travolta, for example, is a monster pilot, ---and has actually restored his own Boeing 707 into full operational 'Quantas,' colors and interior (and he was touring with it,) ---that's insane money.
-Tom Cruise also (recently,) has checked out and is flying a P51-D Mustang called 'Kiss Me Kate.'
--And the reality of it is, for some folks, having their own airplane, flying to whatever it is that they're going to do (like race nascar or whatever,) is cheaper and more private than going with commercial transportation.

But the real fact of it is:
The whole 'boom,' of all the pilots returning home from WW2 and Korea, ---wanting to fly all the time, and making local airports a vital (and regular,) part of everyday transportation, -never really caught on like everybody had hoped.

-There are still some great planes around from that era, there are still some great airports around and such, (even the first 'airpark' which was the houses with garages and such for private aircraft, -out on the west side of town, (it's still operating.)
--but a lot of the airports have closed, fuel is sky-high, and folks just don't want to blow a couple of thousand (at least,) to become pilots.

The sad part of it is, for a country that is so steeped in aviation and the love it it, (and the dependency of it for defence, offence, etc,) -it's sunk to a real novelty, or something only for the Military, ---or for commercial transporation.

Though I'm not a pilot, (I was a linesman, and was part of some experimental bulding and restoration,) I've been in and out of airplanes since I've been three, and it's just an amazing experience, (the smaller ones, where you can feel that you're flying.)
I think everybody should have the chance, just once or twice, to fly.

(and the wildest ride I've ever had? wasn't even in a plane, -but in a helicopter,
(whole different critter, way cool, but totally different.)

When I was a kid, Fresno used to have an air show. Was it the Warbirds? I seem to remember the warbirds being in Fresno and then moving to Madera due to costs or something like that. Does this airshow still exist?

I can also recall flights overhead for Pappy Boyington and B-25s that would gather in Fresno and fly to Doolittle's home on the coast (Carmel?).

Where did all these planes go?

excellent site link too (the 17 flying registry, etc.)

-what I didn't know, (and is a part of the link info: A lot of the 17's that were flying (including Texas Raiders (one of Commemorative/Confederate Air Forces Harlington, Texas based bird,)
-has been held in 'indefinite maintenance,' (essentially grounded,) by the FAA to check into spar cracks.

-There was a similar concern with the waterbombers flown out here that were also WW2 vintage (and newer) aircraft.

-(to those who are not clear on this: -the 'spar,' is essentially the long beam that the wings are built around (kind of like a shaft that runs from (nearly,) tip to tip, ---and passes through (or above or below,) the fuselage of an aircraft.
These planes, -which are made almost entirely of aluminum or light metals (such as magnesium and/or other alloys,) after years of flying, and flexing, will anneal (harden and become less flexible,) and develop cracks due to the stress applied at the rigidity.

-How this is a bad thing?
When a plan has too much of this going on in the wrong areas of it, it can literally fold up in mid air (which is something that happened a few times (too many,) in recent years (particularly with the water bombers, a lot of the ones flying right now were grounded for a while until they were re-certified by the FAA recently.)

-A lot of the older planes have this problem.

-Airplanes are only allowed to log in so many hours (in the air,) before being majorly overhauled.
-The planes during wartime had a couple of things going for them:

-1. -They didn't fly all that many hours before being completely retired, completely rebuilt, or shot down. (so you were dealing with a relatively 'new airplane,' that was punished severely, -but for a very limited period of time.
-2. -They had aircrews and supplies that were 'limitless,' (in comparisson to today,) and could be overhauled overnight if necessary.
-3. -They were designed with the best tech available at the time, ---but really were designed to be expendable, (no designer nor builder, -nor pilot of a WW2 aircraft will tell you that they expected their birds to still be in the air 60-70 years later, -they were hoping for 'months,' of existance during wartime (MONTHS! (that's it.)

Now?
-As the article states, even the newest WW2 planes are 60 years old, and, as the rules get tougher, a lot of them are becoming really impossible to fly and do so safely, -and are subject to constant inspections
---which means constant maintenance,
-and that means constant money being needed (This isn't just 'Gas and Oil,'
--this is creating new parts and manufactoring stuff (that used to be made round the clock, 60 years ago,) -but now, takes thousands of dollars just to 'tool up,' to build, ---and often for only a few parts.

'Liberty Belle,' btw, is reportedly to be the newest and one of the most accurate restorations flying today, (what you saw, If I understand this correctly,) was an extremely 'authentic,' and accurately rebuilt aircraft,
that would have looked just as it did off the assembly line,
-which duplicated what was flown and built during that era (plus safety upgrades and avionics (etc.)
(Most planes cannot say this,
most of them have been modified like crazy just to stay in the air.)

The planes that cannot fly anymore, (due to age and fatigue,) are often refinished to 'static display,' (such as the one down in Tulare, but even then, once in a while somebody comes along and decides to rebuild it and that the money is worth spending.

(Example: the Me 262 Luftwaffe Jet Fighter (one of the first jet fighters of the Second World War,)
-one of the only examples left in the world, sat out at Willow Grove Airbase (Penna, just above Phila,)
-like the 17 is down in Tulare, or like the ones over at FAT for the ANG wing.
--Somebody bought that plane, rebuilt the daylights out of it, put entirely new engines in it, (the old designs JUMO's were so primitive and self-destructive (you could only fly them for a small period of hours and then have to rebuild them, completely, (even then they didn't work so hot, -so they went with a modern jet instead,) and restored/rebuilt it to flying condition (privately funded, costing (probably,) a few million at least.
--They're building up a second one, (which may be done by now.)

What is kind of wild is, there are a lot of old planes that are being found in the strangest of places, -and are highly in demand because, -even if they crashed, -they were in better condition at the time of the crash ---than the ones that have been flying for so many years,

Example:
'Glacier Girl,' (on of the few true P-38 Lightnings,) was literally found encased in a frozen lake, (after the pilot came in on a relatively smooth crash landing,) and it cracked through the ice, sunk and then was frozen in time.)
--The plane flies today and is one of the most perfect 'correct,' examples of a P-38 in the air.
(We've had other P-38's in the air and on the ground, but a lot of them were actually F-5's
(F-5's are reconissance 'photo,' planes, (heavilly modified P-38's,)
painted up to look like fighter planes again.
(Fighter planes had weapons, Recon planes usually did not and had to be heavilly modified to house the cameras and such.)

-There are other planes turning up all over the place (a lot of times lakes and such,)
--lakes swallowed a lot of planes, as they were flown over used for practice runs during the WW2 and post war era, --and when something went wrong,
-the pilots had to ditch, and bail,
resulting in the plane sinking to the bottom,
-now divers are going after THOSE, (not always yeilding good results, as water doesn't compress, and when you hit water hard, it tears everything up (unlike a soft snow covered lake, or even a plowed field, sand-dune, or forest.)
-but the stuff that survived the ditching has been laying there in the dark (preserved because of no UV damage,) --and some really spectacular results are coming up.

There has also been a lot of planes coming in where labor is cheap to rebuild them, (Russia for example,) has coughed up a lot of planes of late, with co-joint craftsman efforts,
-a lot of the labor being done where the dollar is extremely strong, the 'old world craftsmanship,' is high, -and there is money to be made in building them up, then shipping them here, (which means we now have a bunch of WW2 Russian fighters and such flying around the US of late.)

--A good magazine to get, to keep up with this would be
'Warbirds,' or
'Air Classics,'
-Another excellent mag, published by Budd Davission (excellent photog, nice guy too,) is
'Flight Journal,'
-where they interview and fly with pilots from all sorts of eras (WW1 to present,) --and go through what it's like to fly the planes.

But all planes, (at least here in the US)
Are only allowed to log in so many hours (with rebuilds,) before they can no longer fly people (aka airliners,)
-and then they are allowed to fly only freight, and/or be converted to WaterBombing (FireFighters)
--which is how a 747, (and other civilian transports,) wind up putting out forest fires and such,
--if anything goes wrong, it's a small crew in them, not hundreds of people, (who have hundreds more attorneys.)

Another odd fact:
-A lot of 'our planes,' (US restored fighters, bombers, transports, airliners, etc. etc.)
---are being bought by people from overseas, (where old american stuff is huge in demand, kind of like american classic cars being bought and shipped back to foreign folks who are hungry for anything 'american,'
-Some of the coolest planes we had, now live elsewhere, as we just didn't have the money and support to keep them flying and keep them here.
--I'm not entirely sure of this, but I think BOTH Me262's are owned and spoken for by european (both German?) owners.

Here are some pictures of the Tulare plane...

http://ben92252-01.tripod.com/

Also, it has apparently been hit many times by traffic (most recently in 2003).
http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news3.htm

The B-17 in Tulare is sitting on the ground, next to a F-4 Phantom (the kind that used to fly out of Fresno with the 144th Fighter Wing. You can see it on the Google Maps hybrid page: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=aven...

I haven't seen the B-25s, but I will keep my eyes peeled.

The Liberty Belle did have a ball turret. It is a later model, since it has a "chin" turret (the twin 50 cals under the nose).

I'm not sure who had it worse - the tail gunner or the ball turret gunner. Neither had much a chance of getting out in the event of an emergency. The tail gunner literally had to crawl on his hands and knees to get to the back of the plane, whereas the ball turret gunner was locked inside a plexiglass bubble under the plane. The radio operater and navigator seemed to have a fair amount of room, but everyone else had very little. I was even surprised how little room was given to the bombardier.

-just regarding the 'fortress.'

-You're totally right as far as the actual experience of being with one of the old birds when they fire up, it really is unforgettable.
I have airplanes in my blood, always will. (Mostly it's my Dad's fault.)

-Now,
think of this:
--(not sure if Liberty Belle has a ball turret, most G's do, but not all (current) ones do,)
-that little orb (with guns on either side,) was home to some guy who (almost always,) was quite short, and bunched up there,
--(unfortunately,) the ball sometimes got jammed in the town position,
---which meant landing (particularly on bad landing gear,) cost the life of the turret gunner.
If you know anybody who was a ball turret gunner in ANYTHING 'balls,' has a whole new meaning, lemme tell ya.

-The tail gunner (another very tight spot,) also was on his lonesome way back there, -and was also kind of exposed to incoming aircraft.

--ALL of the gun positions, (and all of the crew,) had to wear very heavy leather and shearling suits (boots all the way up to hats and gloves,)
-because at HighAltitudes, not only is there very little oxygen (which they had to breathe from tanks and masks,)
-but it was so cold that their guns often froze up, rending them defenseless against incoming fighters.

I'm not sure as to the full stats, but the B-17 was known as being a plane that could take unbelievable punishment, (there are documented photos of the planes having large parts of their wings shot off,
tail assemblies almost completly sawn off the rest of the plane,
-hardly any engines running,
-even the nose (meaning the bombardier and pilot/co-pilot) gone, ---yet they still flew.

Unlike todays planes, (which are mostly computers,)
a 17 was an extremely stable platform, and had a well deserved reputation of being one of the ones who always brought her crew home, no matter what.

(Now, you talk to the Liberator (B-24) guys, or some of the other crews of their airplanes, --they'll tell you that their birds were better, which is fine...)

I'm still just blown away that these guys were doing this, by the thousands and thousands,
-most before the age of 19,
--Even the leadership was often in only their mid twenties and rarely any older than their early thirties.

This area has a huge history in aviation. (the Central Valley,) -and California (still,) has a lot of flying going on.

-Finally:
Keep your eyes peeled, there are a couple of B25 (Mitchells) with full turrets and such (same planes as are in 'Catch 22')
-that I see every few months tearing around here (in formation,) doing bounce patterns and such out of Chandler and FAT.
(Have no idea who flys them.)

-Was the other 17 down at Tulare just on stop-over? is it still there? (I know there were, (still are,) a lot of water-bombers based in this area, and 17's were used extensively for this for quite some time.)

To me, the frustrating thing is that if the operators of the Liberty Belle didn't cover their costs or raise sufficient funds for their Fresno visit, what do you think the odds are that they (or any other outfit similar to them) will return in a year or two? Fresno is often overlooked for things like this, and when something decides to make a stop in Fresno, the Bee should be out drumming up interest (or at least noting that a historical artifact is siting out on the tarmack). But there was nothing aside from the small ad in the obit section that caught my attention two weeks ago.

OOTV, you are extremely lucky to have had such experience with planes. Before yesterday, the only B-17 I've seen is the one just off 99 in Tulare. But you don't get the smell and the noise of the plane from something that's just sitting there. You don't get to see the oil pouring out of the radial engines or feel the oil that is streaked down the wings and onto the stabilizers. You don't feel the heat of the exhaust. You don't get to see exactly how little room those guys had or how hot the plane gets just sitting on the ground.

I wont say it was a once-in-a-lifetime experience, but it was something unique. I think many people around town would've gladly donated some cash (as I did) for the opportunity to get inside something like the Liberty Belle, even if they couldn't afford to pay for a ride.

'lack of attendance.'
that kind of makes me wonder a bit.

I mean, I've been in and around airplanes (of varying types,) most of my life,
(like as a baby on up into adulthood,)
-so I was raised with them, and have worked on/with them,
(as well as the men and women who flew them.)

This area has a LOT of veterans, (however,) and has continued to have a lot clear up through the present war.
(For me it's quite moving how many residents of the valley have served in one branch or another and wouldn't think twice about signing up again, out of a sense of duty or patriotism.)

I wonder, with the (quite revealing,) discussion that went on over on Donald Monroe's thread of 'the BeeHive' about 'civil war re-enactors,' if that conversation had any impact on it's coverage.
What folks in the valley really view as 'worthwhile history,' 'glamorization of violence,' 'partisan' or 'revisionist' history,'
--or like what happens with some,(like me,) just a sense of 'commonness,' 'raised with it,'
that doesn't raise too many eyebrows.

I mean, I've been through a few '17's and a lot of WW2 planes in my day, and have had access to a lot of stuff that most havn't,
so I didn't drop everything to go over and tour 'Liberty Belle,'
-but again, it was a busy weekend,
-and I'm familar with them as platforms.
It was still pretty excellent to have her fly over my place and wake me up, and then see her off in the mist making the go-round pattern. (a 17G is unmistakable in profile.)

(If it was a B-47, B-58
(neither of which are there any flying examples,)
-or an Avro Lancaster (1 or 2 flying?,)
or a DeHavilland Mosquito (1? maybe, Now?)
--Somebody has built (2) Me 262's (different jet engines used,) not far north of here, or out in the midwest or something.)

-I would make the time, as they are practically extinct.

But, again, I'm a plane freak, and the son of a plane freak (my whole family likes them.)

It would be interesting to see what people considered as 'worth spending time,' checking out (history wise,)
-and why.
(not in a critical sense, just 'why?')

Considering that such a big deal was made about the Indianna Jones movie
(WW2 era setting, which had at least one plane that was similar era (slightly older,) a DC-3 (aka: military C-47)
-that nobody could get near?
-you'd think a plane type that had starred in such landmark films as '12 O'Clock High,' 'the Battle of Britain,' and 'Memphis Belle.' would warrant some ink, (Liberty Belle may have flown in 'Memphis Belle,' it's quite likely, as there are so few 17's still flying...)

-also?
The filming of 'Memphis Belle' actually was the largest regathering of B-17's in recent history, and still they accidently crashed two of them during the filming,(I don't think they were rebuilt, either.)

-In fact, the past five to ten years have been extremely tough on 'historic,' aircraft,
(be they flown for racing, or simply in aerial display,)
-there have been crash after crash of these birds at airshows and such, which has also taken out a lot of excellent pilots.
-We've lost a ton of planes (some of which: there were only one or two left in the world,
(some,) being the only one left (or recreated) (and) only one flying. (such as the Hughes racer and the GeeBee.)

This has caused the FAA to reconsider a lot of airshow 'display methods,' and a lot of people who own the planes (which cost millions, and are made of irreplacable parts,) to simply not fly them anymore.

(Memphis Belle, (the orig plane that the movie is based on,) actually was sent back,
(after her last bombing run, the event depicted in the movie,)
-with some of the orig. crew, to go nationally from town to town to raise warbonds, (just like Liberty Belle is flying town to town,)
('Memphis Belle' is now on static display and has been restored at least, twice, having been restored and fallen into disrepair as a 'monument.' -something else I find surprising and unfortunate.)

With such thin crowds this past weekend, I seriously doubt if 'Liberty Belle,' earned enough AvGas and oil to make it to her next stop.)

-What's really wild?
-Just after the second world war, you could buy a plane, like 'Liberty Belle,' from out of the scrapyard, (fully airworthy, fully fueled,)
-for less than a decent used american sedan costs today,
-with fighters going for even less (sometimes only a few hundred dollars,)

--This is why so many planes wound up in the strangest situations (such as fighting fires, crop dusting, racing, or sitting on top of a gas-station, as some sort of 'promo,' in a used car lot, (which actually saved a lot of them inadvertantly.)
---again, these things now are worth millions.

(Final note:
-IF you get a chance to see any historic aircraft,
by all means do so.

--IF you get a chance to see anything (post,) WW2 era, I WOULD drop everything and go.

-Ya see, there are actually (by comparison), practically NO Korean, Cold War or Vietnam Era planes flying, (particularly the early Jets.)
A survey of airworthy or static display aviation from the Second World War on, shows hardly anything surviving, let alone restored.

-Example:
It's kind of strange, but we have a lot of P51 'Mustangs,'
(WW2-early Korea fighters,)-actually a few hundred registered and airworthy (just here in the US.)

-But only a few 'Skyraiders,' (WW2-Korea-Vietnam era)

-And ike NO McDonald F-4 Phantoms
(Korea-Vietnam-Desert Storm Fighter)Jets flying in the US at all,)
(-yet, these were used at one time by both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds, and are one of the most instantly recognizable 'Nam,' era planes.)
(You'll hear of 'Wild-Weasel,' reconissance planes (which are heavily updated/modified F-4's)
--but they are not flying for the public, and I don't think they're even in use by the military anymore.

(The German Luftwaffe had one or two actual 'Phantoms,' out at Reno (airraces,) a year or so ago for flight demos.)
-and that leads to something quite interesting that's also becoming the case,

1. -a lot of (non-US) countries who were flying our 'decomissioned,' stuff are the only ones flying (our) historic aircraft today, (some of them, such as the Germans, or the Japanese, who we fought against in two wars, -then had as allies twenty years later?, -are the ones who are preserving our stuff.)
2. -(in fact, a huge degree of our (present,) US historic 'flying,' and static display aircraft were actually 'purchased back' from other countries where they were still serving up to recent years. (A lot of our F4U 'Corsairs,' (the 'Baa Baa BlackSheep planes,) were fighting in recent decades in South America, for example.)

-Still, there is an extreme gap in 'recent history,' planes,
(early jets (such as the DeHavilland Vampire) which takes about as much fuel to 'idle,' as to run in flight,)
-are usually owned and supported by multi-millionaires or 'historic (donation funded) 'foundations,'
(or, such as that 'Vampire,' (with an F-9 Panther as a demonstration teammate) was owned and operated by a Bank!,) -the only business entity that could afford to feed the two of them.

--More recent stuff is either too expensive to run,
and/or have too few pilots who are trained to fly them (another problem.)
(These guys initially flew the fighters in their mid-to late teens, to early twenties, --now? they're usually between 60 and 80.)

So, yeah, if you get a chance to experience any of this? Do so.

It's probably not going to be happening too much longer.

A friend from church went up in the B-17 Saturday. He loved the one hour flight! He did say it was very loud inside. He could not communicate to the person next to him even by yelling at him it was so noisy. They flew over Millerton Lake and over Fresno. He said a F-16 dipped its wings at them as well.
The Bulldog fans loved it. It is indeed impressive to see the Lancers fly overhead. A great start to a fun game on a nice sunny afternoon.

I saw both (and ventured inside the former). It was an amazing experience, which was soured only by the sparse crowd that gathered to see the B-17. The Bee really dropped the ball by not writting up a little article about the plane. It was a living piece of history that you could take in for free (not the flying part). Not to mention that Veterans' Day is coming up.

I was surprised at how small the plane was. As I crawled through it, I imagined what it must have been like bouncing around, with a wool suit and a parachute strapped to your back, all while being shot at. It really put all those history channel shows in perspective.

I heard something a bit noisey and jettish, (but then again, I live right on the flightpath from FAT, and not too far from BullDog stadium...

Truthfully?
I Have never seen a Lancer or a Stealth Bomber up close... F117, yes, (very weird and ugly birds,)

-The lancer is a really cool oldworld/newworld kinda design. The thing just screams 'hotrod.' (and to think they almost nixxed the project over budgetting...)

--So, like, was it loud and stuff?
(I mean, jeesh what do you say to that...?
-sorta makes you wonder
-A supersonic Bomber at a FSU tailgate party:

-did people get bent out of shape because they weren't red?
-some guys funnelling beers passing out from trying to watch them fly over and going off balance.
-how many dogs howelled at the engines?
-how many car alarms set off?
-(how many reeeealllly old fans had to turn down the ol hearing aid?
-(how many folks had to use the facilites after the fly over just based upon the rumble?
-how far did the motorcycle cops have to chase it before it was finally pulled over for speeding?

(and my fav:

'-B1 schmeeee 1,
I'll take the B-52's and a slow dance with Kate Pierson any day.... rrrrarrrrr!' (that's one bee-hive I don't mind standing too close too.... nossir..)

Did you see the pair of B-1B Lancers that flew over Bulldog Stadium prior to the Bulldogs' football game? Around 2 PM. It was a tribute to the "Father of the B-1B" Dr. Sam Iacobellis an alumnus of Fresno State who was standing at midfield as the bombers flew over. Quite impressive to see them fly over.
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110207aaa.html