Fresno Famous

More now

Okay, let me see if I can constructively make this picture clear with out actually painting it. Fresno IS an attraction, a center or focal point if you will. That has been our destiny all along; however, some “SHIFT” happened along the way, and we were spared (yes spared) the shame and judgment that SoCal and NorCal must soon face. We now have the opportunity to unite in an effort that restores RE value to prime ag land, preserve our water resources, clean the air, provide housing and transportation in an orderly and logical manner, and at the same time, display the diversity and wealth of this community and the values that are Fresno at its finest.
Residency in DTF? Of course, that’s a no brainer. Is it “THE” answer? Obviously not, wipe the sleep out of your eyes. Downtowns are for hubbing. They are the pivoting point (the anchors if you will) for the heritage of a community, showcasing the wealth that makes that area great, and a central location to celebrate and revel in our strengths and successes, while laughing at our feeble attempts at success that often end in failure.
Fresno is a place of true innovation and yes, even technology. Unfortunately, much of that acclaim to fame has been given to areas those truly creative individuals who have moved to, to escape the (you fill can in the Blank) that handicaps this vicinity. Thankfully enough though, efforts have been and are being made to correct this dilemma. Has it been easy? No. Will it get easier? Yes, but only if we can openly communicate without running away or bullying the playground, in other words, if we ALL work/play together nice. With that being said, let's move on to consider some of the options that are pieces of the puzzle in the big picture of DT Fresno.
The area of land from Inyo to Ventura and Van Ness to Broadway is the exact geographical center of the Central Valley's axes. That point of origin where Fulton Mall intersects Inyo will dictate the future for all our generations. You all know the place I am talking about. It is not meant to be a residential development, but rather the showcase of who we were, who we are, and who we ARE TO BE! Does that mean the currently proposed project for that site should be scrapped? Absolutely not, relocate that one and build the showpiece that will draw our creative children home, as well as attract the vast amount of resources ready to come here and effectually impact this place.
Recently, I have had the unexpected honor and privilege to meet with some real estate developers (primarily commercial) from various areas throughout the Central Valley. When I asked them about redeveloping our DT, not one of them had anything positive to say on the matter. Hmmm I thought, why is that? Here is the answer I see. DT’s are not residential in nature, nor do they belong exclusively to government and/or industry. DT’s are a balanced combination of all of the above. So I have to ask myself, what is it that attracts peoples to a regions DT? The answers are many, so I will list only a few.

1. The quaintness of an areas history and culture in all its aspects.
2. Industry, JOBS, and an open arms approach to the concerns of OUR outlying communities.
3. Entertainment, theatre, dining, and an attractive active nightlife.
4. Decongestive and innovative transportation solutions.
5. Convenience and security for residence, visitors, and businesses.

I can see some truly beautiful outcomes coming to Fresno if we can get over our past hurts and mistakes, bury the metaphorical hatchet, and leave behind the mindset that says, “just throw a bunch of stuff on the wall and see what sticks. We’ll clean up rest of the mess later.” Let us embrace and protect our heritage of architecture and landscape while incorporating future developments that blend it all together in a really innovative transitionary fashion. Advocation and tolerance were a good next step in the evolution of our species, but they never were the wisest answer for the ills that plaque society. Maybe when we reach for the level of forgiveness and acceptance we can then free ourselves of the mediocre and find real purpose and satisfaction in excellence.
I would like to end on this thought. From my perspective, Fulton Mall was a really great idea, and I have many memories there (both good and bad). I think it is just a concept that was ahead of its time. Now its acceptable time is here and all I hear is a bunch of complaining. Has anyone stopped to consider that this work of genius has a 50 yr anniversary coming up, and what are we doing to showcase and celebrate that? I don’t know, it’s just a thought.

A part of the solution

Ok people does it really have to be this difficult? Fresno was destined to be a central hubbing destination, not just location. Thankfully we are in a unique position to not only learn from our own "PAST" mistakes, but from those cities that left us behind 100 or so years ago (ie. Oakland, San Francisco, and Los Angeles). Yes residency in any downtown area is good, but it is not the entire answer. A cities downtown should be about all the bells and whistles that attract visitors and local area (Tulare to Livingston) residents. We have River Park to the North, Fancher Creek to the East, some day there will be communities equidistance from OUR DOWNTOWN to the South and West. Now do we keep going on this path of self destruction and continue to build over the top of the richest most fertile soil in the WORLD. Or even to continue on in our self absorbing short sightedness as Joe pointed out in his thread above,"...ripped out the soul of the city...and it's amazing to see how much of the heart of the city was torn out in the name of progress..." We have something the whole World is hungering for and here we are right now at the crossroads acting like children who can not agree on what game to play! My God friends and neighbors, WE CAN PLAY THEM ALL! It is my opinion that building codes DT should be implemented immediately to establish minimum height requirements (10 stories seems like a good start) along with mandatory underground parking requirements that provide facilities for both public and private use, and that are already incorporated into the obvious infrastructure transportation solutions available today. GGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!! MORE LATER.

A Key?

How about this? A Middle and Upper Middle class downtown population is the key to downtown development. Without customers with money what can happen? The kind of merchants in an area always reflects the economics of that area. If you have mostly poor people you get mostly poor people stores. If you have mostly rich people you get stores that cater to their tastes and pocketbooks. Check cashing, thrift and liquor stores instead of Ikea, Vons and Nordtroms. It wouldn't make any business sense otherwise.

re: downtown housing

I'm not saying that housing isn't important, I agree it's the most important thing that's almost totally absent right now. But I think Craig has a point that it's not a simple matter of a quick fix. It's a part of the puzzle.

Your comment about the loft

Your comment about the loft in the BofA building is proof you'd rather walk too. I agree that right now people are driving in. But that is mostly because they can't live there. If they could many people would. Wouldn't you?

re: Fulton Mall or not

My point is that most of the exciting things happening Downtown aren't on the Mall. I'm NOT saying it's because of the mall, just an observation of what these places have in common. And, it's not as if those places you mentioned, that are doing those exciting things have condos/lofts next door to thank for their success. So I think places like Fagans, and Full Circle are proof that it's about more than just residential. (though how cool would it be to have a loft in the old Bank of Italy Building!!!)

Fulton Mall or not.

I liked the Fulton bar/tavern. I'd love to see it back. And I like that new coffee place north of the clock tower. The lack of commercial development is because of the lack of an upstairs population with money. A population which would need shops and bars and everything else and desires, literally, a pedestrian lifestyle. I'm sure any future downtown residents will have eclectic tastes and will be able to support any number of businesses and venues depending on the income mix. Right now there are a high percentage of low income people residing in the downtown and very few high income people. Any condo and loft conversion or construction improves that mix and makes more business possible. I'd like to think of the Mall as the classic market place in the front yard. It just doesn't have a customer base with enough money or jobs.

re: fun in fresno

Agreed, those are all excellent venues run by people with a vision. We should all support them. However, is it any coincidence that none of those establishments are on the Fulton Mall?

Fun? In Fresno?

Fun can be found at Fagan's... and at Full Circle Brewing, Tokyo Gardens, and soon at the Olive Press to name a few. The owners of these places are true believers in Downtown. They put their money on the line. Support them if you believe in it too.
It would be so much easier to draw people into these venues if all of them didn't have to drive to get here. I was walking down Kern Street two days before Christmas thinking how beautiful it will be when all of the lights in the upper floors are on because people live there, how the sidewalks will be full at 11 PM and the buses will run until 3 AM.
Can you imagine the Fulton Mall with 5 to 10 thousand middle and upper class residents? The businesses would follow with lots of small jobs being created for the lower economic classes and the people in general would prosper.
The main thing I hear constantly from the north Fresnans is fear. I say fear of what? Is it a blank page or an empty canvas? If it is fear of a brown planet, I'd suggest they look around, take a deep breath and get over it or move to Idaho.

This really is a question of creativity. Will we create a future Fresno that has a vibrant Downtown or not? It's vibrancy will be measured by the footsteps of it's residents and those that come to party with them.
Those of us in the music and arts community are mostly middle and lower income. We don't have the capital needed to do this. We rely, as always, on the enthusiasm and support of the upper middle class and the aristocracy for these things. I believe that capitalists are creative too and that they shouldn't wait for government if they don't have too.

I have a couple of more specific observations about downtown.

A weekend night trolley route hitting all the Downtown venues, Tower District and Zapps Park might be wonderful.

The building of the Exhibit Hall without the proposed hotel was a large scale mistake. This hotel is key to having enough local hotel beds to serve an Exhibit Hall that large. This should be fixed ASAP. Space is being wasted and our guests are being inconvenienced.

When Fresno Rode the Rails

I've been wanting to get that book.

Fresno City Railway Co.

Forthcamp / Blackstone, Sunnyside & the City Limits lines.

re: trolley tracks

This is what my dad tells me as well, but the story might be apocryphal. There's a book called "When Fresno Rode the Rails" that tells the story of Fresno's inter-urban railway. Interestingly enough, at the time they got rid of the trolleys, the locals thought that bus service was a great improvement. Of course, Fresno isn't the only city that did this, it was quite common, especially on the west coast.

SLO

Firstly, this is very exciting, debating with a former city councilman. Rock on!

Point taken on SLO and festivals. I would, however, argue that at least 50% of SLO residents live either within walking distance or a 5-minute drive of downtown. The city also was proactive in building parking structures (free for the first 90 minutes) to get people down there. True, the businesses have always had a love/hate relationship with college students, but most eventually realized they wouldn't exist without them.

I think the bigger question is: What makes downtown fun in the first place? Who makes it fun for people coming in from out of town? Who's responsible for making a neighborhood great? What kind of people are the pioneers who take the first steps in making it thrive?

How many questions can I ask in one post?

great points Guv

In isolation they are absolutely correct.

Events need to be a part of a bigger plan. It's the old sizzle and steak thing. But events that are done for a reason can add to the economoy and/or bring in new foot traffic (evening, tourist, seasonal...). My point was that it is possible to get people downtwon without having them live there (see Nashville comment in original blog).

All downtowns have clues. There are things to learn from every city, although not all are good things. There are some universal truths about revitalization, and many more that apply generally, if not universally.

The point of the SLO comment was: can you have a successful (fun) downtown without relying on downtown residents as a major component. There are some examples.

I do not argue that downtown residents aren't needed, wanted, desired. However, Fresnans have grasped downtown residential as THE magic bullet. they are not. Fun will ulitmately determine whether people visit (from out of town or north Fresno) our downtown and will ever decide to come back. Residents support the life, economy, safety and feel of a place.

SLO town merchants had signs in their windows, in the early seventies, that siad "No Poly Rats." They did not want college students hanging out downtown. What can we learn from that?

Craig
What is an authentic community?

The SLO Life, and the Fulton Parade Commute

I think we should all agree that you can't have a thriving neighborhood (downtown or otherwise) if the entire population needs to commute 20 minutes just to get there. That, quite simply, means that downtown needs permanent residents and it needs activities and services that keep it humming 24/7, not just in the daytime. Young people with disposable income seem to make the most sense. Two points:

1. Regarding "festivals" and weekend "activities": Those are great, but growing up, I remember Fulton Mall as the place where you only went when there was a "parade" or "festival" going on. You go there, watch a few dance routines, visit a couple makeshift booths, and then return home. There was NOTHING to keep us there, so the festivals only reminded us why we didn't ever go downtown. There was nothing to do, no shopping, no restaurants and horrible parking.

2. Comparing SLO and Fresno is apples and oranges. SLO lives and dies because of two things: 1.) Tourism and 2.) Cal Poly students. The town has a captive audience of young people with disposable income, with nothing better to do than go downtown and eat, drink, and shop. SLO also has been incredibly strict about allowing developers into the city. For a long time, they shunned big-box stores and other strip mall ideas out of fear that it would hurt downtown business. In turn, the city is an expensive place to live, and there aren't many jobs for professionals. But they don't need that. They have drunk college students.

trolley tracks

I was told that the steel from the trolley tracks was sold to Japan, just prior to the start of WWII. Good plan!

Craig
What is an authentic community?

ahhh THOSE people

The National Main Street Center did a study a number of years ago to find the main criteria for a successful downtown. The young man who conducted the study concluded that one feature seemed to say it all: People on the sidewalks who had disposable income. Foot traffic and cash.

Is it possible to have a fun downtown that isn't successful? Is it possible to have a successful downtown that has downtown residents?

Is it possible to have a downtown that is so fun that people from the Tower District frequent it on a regular basis?
Is it possible to have a downtown that is so fun that people from north fresburg would frequent it on a regular basis?

Is it possible to have enough downtown workers to support cafes, breakfast spots, lunch spots, and after work third spaces? Possible, but we haven't seen it yet.

Is it possible to have enough activities downtown to attract people Thursday through Saturday nights? Possible, but we haven't seen it on a sustainable basis.

Could we program the fulton mall/district with ethnic and ag festivals every weekend of the year to attract folks from throughout the valley into our downtown (Armenian fest, Portuguese festa, peach fest, central valley winetasting fest). Yes.

Craig
What is an authentic community?

It's on, Craig

I accept your challenge! I'll agree with your success criteria for downtowns: they should be cool, fun, interesting, real, different, busy, and authentic.

I'll disagree with the implication that we can get bars, restaurants, shops, or other fun things downtown without folks living here. You're right- there may be 50,000 people living downtown, but frankly not enough are of the right economic bracket to encourage the kinds of fun things we want.. We need more of a mix.

I don't know much about the development of downtown SLO (I've only been there once, and it made me feel old. And I'm not old). I could recount another tale though, of Bushwick Brooklyn. That was an old, low-income neighborhood.It had shops and a few restaurants like our downtown, but they weren't what you'd call "cool" or fun. Then people started buying old factories and turning them into expensive lofts that the regular neighborhood folks couldn't afford. At the time, there was one hipster cafe- just one. The neighborhood was kind of scary. Businesses and restaurants that catered to the new people moved in later. Now it's fun.

I don't think we can get a "fun" downtown without residents who demand these services. Think of the thousands of people who live in a 5 mile radius to River Park and their purchasing power.. I don't think we need that many folks downtown, just enough to get the businesses, and the virtuous cycle, going.

downtown "flow"

What you're talking about is the physical evidence of a lot of "redevelopment" projects of the last 40 years, which in many cases just ripped out the soul of the city. I was looking at some old photos by Pop Laval the other day of downtown, and specifically Broadway, and with the exception of the Hotel Fresno, virtually nothing remains. Look at an aerial picture of downtown from 1955, and one of today (Google maps), and it's amazing to see how much of the heart of the city was torn out in the name of progress, replaced by parking lots or out of place structures, such as Longs, which don't really work very well in a downtown setting. The whole Broadway/H street area has been decimated over the years, and the rerouting of streets is just part of that. While these moves did provide parking, it made islands of buildings like the Hotel Fresno, and I don't think really helped the businesses on Fulton, by obliterating virtually the entire business district that is only one block away. Look to Google Maps (though slightly outdated to see what I'm talking about)

Re: The Fresno Traction Company, (trolleys) one could argue that if the street cars hadn't been torn out in 1938/1939 and had been kept in use, that the Fulton Mall would never have been built in the first place.

It's on, Jarah

I challenge you to a duel. I was never on the debate team, but as Pat Hill would say, I'll lose to anyone, anywhere, anytime. You take the side of residents and I'll argue for fun.

Arlington, Virginia has ten of thousands of residents and it looks like a bizarre ghost town. I knew that there where people up in those high rises, but I saw more paper blowing down the shop and restaurant-free sidewalks, than people.

I'll never argue against the importance of downtown residential, but they are not absolutely necessary for success. Residents add an incredible amount to the mix, but there are many great downtowns who only added residential after they were on the road to success.

Do you go to downtown SLO because of residents? Do you know how many people live in downtown SLO?

How many people live in downtown Fresno's downtown triangle (which is really a false geographic description of our downtown)? 20,000? 50,000? Somewhere in between those numbers, I'd guess.

Downtowns are gauged successful when our internal fun meters start ringing. That's why so many plans and planners fail. If a downtown is fun enough, people will start doing weird things like moving into old warehouses and in vacant spaces above shops.

Now remember debater (careful how you use that word in mixed company) I'm not saying that residnetial isn't wanted or needed. I'm saying that you (and others) judge a downtown by how cool, fun, interesting, real, different, busy, and authentic it is. Focus on these issues and it won't matter how many one-way streets, parking tickets, and panhandlers we have (i'm exagerating to make a point of course).

The more fun and interseting a place is, the more often a person wants to visit there. there more that a person visits, the more likely they are to tell others, bring others with them, and to spend money. They might even spend money in rent.

fun items in interesting shops. Iteresting items on menus in fun restaurants. Interesting people playing music on sidewalks and on stages. Interesting people browsing books in interesting bookstores.Craig
What is an authentic community?

you still need to eat

A grocery store/general services store near the "new" residental downtown sections would be nice. We tend to walk in SF, Fresnans are car-centric, it would take decades to change that behavior.

Fun is more fun

I challenge you to a duel.

fix the roads flow and other stuff

when the IRS building went in it blocked the H st. flow over to Broadway when driving north and that you could go from Broadway to H st. driving south... there is the point less intersection right near the dead Fresno Hotel that needs to be totally redone just make H st. go strait with out the little jog over it has, do away with the stop light all together, I look at it as unfinished work the city gave up that little peace of H st. for the IRS building, well they really need to fix that roads flow. Al so because of that building the little useless frontage road north of the Longs Drugs needs to be reworked too... the Futon Stop light should just flow on to it or it should just be turned in to parking or used, I think taking out the longs and putting a new downtown Library there is a good idea, Longs can move down south on the mall, maybe even to the south of stadium end with Smart and Final. The south of Stadium project needs lots of work with the plans ... any road that goes south that does not dead end in to 41 and leads to On and Off ramps should not be blocked, the current published plan shown in the Bee has the Street Broadway blocked and removed, when that with Van Ness are the two streets in the area that flow under 41 to the old Warehouse district, now why do they want to block Broadway, when Fulton is a Dead End road that should be closed off all the way from the current end of the mall all the way to 41. Who ever is designing these plans really need to get their lame asses downtown and hang out for at least 5 years to really get to know the flow of the area, I'm lucky that I went to Edison High School, I really got to know downtown in the 1980's and it's gotten better since recently... don't get me wrong there was interests in downtown, when the Fulton Bar existed in the mid 1990's.

Don't ever open the Fulton Mall up to car traffic, just bring back the little people trams it had, in the 1970's and before... I would not mind a light rail it would give the mall even more character, too bad they did not just leave the Fresno Rail Line that was there in the 1920's. I bet if Fresno still had it's Rail Line in it's original historical style, it would be a tourist site and people would appreciate the city more for keeping it's old historical buildings, but no they got destroyed, like the Court House and the old Sunmaid Raisin Factory that they wanted to keep at least the old Water Tower. it's incredible that we still have the Water Tower that we have downtown. Speaking of water towers I wish the Chinatown Revitalization, Ker Rug and the City would paint the Ker Rug Water Tower like a Chinese Pagoda to give Chinatown a visible landmark that could be seen from the Freeways 41 and 99, I mean with 100,000 or so cars passing by everyday it would stick in people minds better than some boring billboard, like the Coffee Pot water tower in Kingsburg.

I was going to blog all this here but here are a few thoughts for now.

Re: quick fix downtown

Exactly. I think this kind of thinking, (for example "all downtown needs is [fill in the blank]") is the type of thinking that got Fresno, and Downtown Fresno specifically, into the situation that it's in right now. 40 years ago the Fulton Mall, Convention Center and the Del Webb Townhouses were all looked in much that same way, a quick fix, rather than part of the whole. But yes, residential development downtown is essential, without a doubt.

It may not be THE answer,

It may not be THE answer, but I think it's the biggest piece of the puzzle that isn't yet in place.