Rob DeFrees

Having read your very long thread, I still think you should not be proud.

You used THAT word to shock. No long explaination will undo how very 'uncool' it is.

Think you should learn better words to shock folks.

There is a place for profanity, but do not think this is that place.

I don't think people's choices should be a reason to make you laugh. I happen to like and admire Madonna and buying Madonna tickets is my choice... do I need to justify for that? I sure hope

What I should have included was that I agreed with you. I was just writing a response to the original. I just have to laugh when (how many ever) parents, or just "outraged" people, bought tickets for MADONNA. MADONNA of all people!? Thinking there wasn't going to be controversy?! lol!

Anywho, love reading your responses, romeovoid!

But if I was throwing shit at Madonna, the very least I'd expect is to be called a "motherfucker."

I've been really interested in the response that the writings have given. (seriously,)

This is no pretending at being offended by Madonna, or wanting to build a fools paradise of 'having kids who never hear bad words.'
-I personally, couldn't care less about Madonna.
Ditto, GreenDay, or (a lot of) other performers in the grand scheme of things.
-They are performers, they get paid for what they do, people enjoy them, the show starts, is done and ends, people go home, that's it.

I think what I wrote, (if folks took the time to read it, which is purely up to them,) still makes points that can either be (thought about,) -or danced around.

It comes down to this.
-What you expose your kids to, what they are exposed to in life, -and what you do with it, -sculpts them, and affects what they will be and do.
-It means different things to a kid when they hear, see, or are exposed to things (away from a parent or someone who they look up to,) --and when it happens WITH those people.
-Kids wonder about stuff, they are always checking in with their parents, guardians, those that they look up to, to see what is what... I think we stop doing this at around, um, age 80.
-and when a young kid is exposed to something, and you don't work with them, so that they will have a good grip on it, it's not only a missed opportunity for (both of you,) --but can sort of blindside them, ---or sometimes screw them up a little. (sometimes, a lot.)
Kids model themselves after who they are with, (especially if they are with older people who they care about.)

We don't take kids to porn shops.
We don't take them to dogfights
We don't take them into sleazy bars, (or, usually bars at all prior to certain ages,)
We watch what we say, and talk about around them.
--Those who are 'caring for,' --and are sculpting them (such as teachers,) -act in this way, and we hold them to it.
---and if act in a way that is considered innapropriate, --we pull our kids, --and they loose their jobs, --and licenses.
Why?
---because we know that it's wrong to do stuff like this around kids, ---and we don't want our kids handled like this, ---and because we know our kids are vulnerable to them... (Some folks even highly resent this, -considering that the teachers spend more time with our kids -than we do.)

When a kid is with you, and sees how you act, what you like, what you find funny, or sad, --they model after it, it becomes their standard, and you've contributed to it, (for good or for bad,) by (not only discussing it with them after they've seen something happen,---but by your being there, allowing them to be there, ---and/or stepping in on the situation or not.)

(Why do you think there are so many kids who smoke, -when there parents smoke and tell them it's wrong? -Ditto, overeating, drinking to excess, innapropriate relationships, or mistreatment of others, ---even bad clothing styles... -you name it, more is caught by a kid, than taught to them.)

I did not see 'only a few kids,' at the show, I sat waiting at lights for the crowd to pass, and saw a lot of kids. (so I know what I saw.)
I have also known of all of Madonna's incarnations as a performer, and know that she's run the range from the 'papa don't preach,' image, to religious imagery, to sexual imagery... it's all pretty standard and well documented stuff... If people like that, fine for them.

Further:
If this whole theory of 'motherfucker,' is just a word was true, we could use this word anywhere, at anytime, and it'd be no big deal. (Such as in the Bee, or some other public venue..)
--But we know that this isn't true, ---because we use those words only at certain times, --when certain feelings are conveyed, --and certain effects are sought. -Call someone a motherfucker, --you get results.
-As far as (anything) being 'just' anything, that's a crock. What we see, say, listen to, eat, are a part of, --all has an impact and an effect on us, (---it's why we do it to begin with.)
-I don't think innocuous even really exists. (It certainly doesn't in the art world.)

These days, you can do anything you want, really, with your kid, and few are going to question, ---or choose to comment.
---Most of the time you'll hear, '...jeez, glad that's not MY kid (talking like that, acting like that, here watching that,,,, etc.)
---and I think people taking personal responsibility for one's children is commendable...

I have no desire to see some sterilized world where 'certain music,' or certain forms of expression are outlawed, (I found the whole thing of Rap music banned from live venues, --as written by (Mike Oz?) last fall to be pretty mind-blowing.) A whole genre of music was, what, ceased from being performed live, --over somebody's behavior problem and a couple of shootings? ---that's amazing. (I don't think it solved the problem, and I don't think the problem was the genre of music, either.)

I have no interest in moralizing whatsoever.

I've just observed, worked with, and have had to deal with it professionally for a long time,
-when people act degrading, choose to degrade themselves, degrade others,
--and lower the standards of how they communicate, guess what?
-it's not good for them.
People rise to the level of their behaviors, speech, goals, imagery, (etc.)
--and when you set that standard a few inches off of the gutter, that is where you likely will remain, (or go lower.)

I agree with the writer who states that you have to watch what your kid listens to, or participates in, (watches etc.) ---and applaud their interest in 'raising' their kid.

Maybe this acid test has been lost,
-(which would be unfortunate,)
---do you want your kid to use language and act like that?
---and whom do you want them to use that language with, (YOU?
-your parents? -your relatives?
-those older than them? -younger siblings?

--and while we're at it, maybe it's a good idea to establish: '..I think it's a good idea for my kid, (or my younger sibling, niece, nephew, etc..) to start using the word 'motherfucker,:
-at "_pick an_" age...
---because, at that time they'll be old enough to be responsible for proper use of the word, --and be capable of handling the results the word will give.'

I really apologize to those who don't like what I'm saying...
-----seriously, I have this bad habit.
--I happen to care about kids, (I've raised a lot of other people's kids, and they didn't always come to me in such great shape, lemme tell ya... -and whether it was nature or nurture on the table, usually, when I had a kid who was exposed to this stuff a whole bunch, (and talked like it, as a result,) --they were pretty tore up and no doing so well...)

--As an artist, I also care about communication overall.

--I also love the challange of getting people to really think, (you know, as much as they want to,) -rather than just follow and moo.
(Sort of a lifelong curse, I'm stuck with.)

---People need to really accomplish something, be creative, and make the most of (and enjoy,) what they have, and what they are. ---and that includes their language, ---and how they communicate, (and how others see them,) as well.
-obscenities seem to have their place, -but they can corrode, debase, deface, and injure a person more than they are worth. -You can really only shock someone once, after that, you're just vulgar.

---No disrespect, but this is the 'self esteem, and self-awareness' capital of the planet (meaning California.)
---I thought this was all sort of a no-brainer along those lines,
---Maybe 'what's cool to 'self,' -doesn't go far enough?

-Maybe it's what is cool for others, -like a kid seeing and hearing stuff, and being affected by it (in a good way vs. bad,) that is better.

Seriously, if you are taking a kid to a concert these days, do you really think ANY content is going to be G-Rated? I am a parent, and I KNOW that if I took either of my kids to a concert, they will almost DEFINITELY hear the artist(s) use at LEAST one curse word.

Am I going to rant and rave about how awful the artist is for not censoring their show for the sake of my child's ears? NO! (I'm stealing someone's elses idea as far as the Pleasantville thing goes, "The Village" is kinda the same thing.) I am an open parent with my kids. I don't pretend that as long as my kids don't hear or see anything "bad" that they themselves won't do any or say anything "bad".

Please don't be a lazy parent! Before you buy your kid a ticket to go see ANY concert, research the artist. Afterall, you should AT LEAST be aware of what your OWN child is listening to and/or watching! Or do you just give them the money, let them buy whatever kind of CD they wish, make sure they listen on their iPod, computer, CD player, somewhere where you can't hear "that noise"?

Ignorance is bliss afterall!

there were a lot of kids at the green day concert last november. Billy Joe was saying worse things than "motherfucker"

people act like morons talking about how bad it is for a kid to hear a cuss word. Like the kids a the madonna concert had never heard the word "motherfucker"?

To Romeovoid: Please STOP over-analyzing. MOTHERFUCKER is just a WORD. Why on earth would you assume there were kids at this concert and why would Madonna give a RATSASS if there were? Any parent who brings there kid to a Madonna show should expect nothing less, and if they dont then they are ignorant, plain and simple. You really don't want to sound ignorant, do you? Think about that before you type.

Brevity is a blessing.

I'm too ADD to make it through another epic novel from Romeovoid, but I will say this: I adore the word "Fuck" and I find Madonna riding a stripper's pole attached to a black leather saddle to be ridiculously hilarious and entertaining. That's exactly what I want to see from Madonna. Those who complain about the "controversial" Madonna-on-the-cross bit, or the use of the word "motherfucker" should stick to Celine Dion shows. Madonna's been doing this schtick for 20 years -- no one with half a brain could claim ignorance about the content of her show. And those of us who can call ourselves fans or even just admirers of hers would want to see nothing less.

2 things.

1.) there's this thing called irony... (as well as sarcasm.)

the prev. note was based deeply in that...
first thing I read this morning, on a review for Madonna was the final word: 'motherfucker,' in itallics...
-no explaination, just 'motherfucker,'
---okay, I'm thinking... -perhaps somebody hacked Jarah's keyboard??? (though I'd not think less of her for writing such things, --it hasn't been the usual verbage that she has,,, I mean, when Madonna's tour stop here was announced it was "OMFG,,, Madonna is coming to Fresno' -or something... (not the phrase, just the initials.)
---so I wrote about it, as it was surprising...

--then I changed the message, just to question it.. (there was time to change the message, which is pretty much standard...)

Then a lot of string about the show,,, even some about 'Fres-yes,' (and a response by Jarah, '...her words, not mine..' )
sooo, ---hey, no problem I understand, a little clarification, a little eye opening controversy with the kick-off remark... sells subscriptions,,, this morning I only needed de-caf. got it..

So I wrote about Madonna's choice of words, ---and who heard them, and why it (might) be considered a problem.
---and I drove a point for a while to theorize just how far it should go, this language that our 'stars,' use, ---and just how okay it is...

-Ya see, Madonna is a Pop Star...
Pop Stars are sort of heard by everyone,, and even though we're not going to go all crazy with debates about 'being role models for the general public, and such..'
-I think she could have used better language.

-It wasn't an over 18 venue, it wasn't at a club, and it was for the general public... (A big general public.)
-and like it or not, what you say from the stage you are responsible for, ---and affects people.
---And, say what you want, but whether you are standing in Clovis or Fresno, (not sure where the arena is,) in the General Public, you really aren't afforded freedom to use that type of comment too much, --without being asked to leave the venue you are at.. ---if it's a 'general public' area. (I'd say try it sometime, --but why subject others to more of the same..)

Now, the arguement could be '...well, if your influence on your kids is so minimal, that comments from Madonna affect them, -you need to be a better parent or guardian,,, Besides, -if you go to see Madonna, you go to see that...' -may ring true.

When he was alive I could have seen GG Allen, I could have seen Wendy O, (I'm an old punker, some of my 'Pop Stars,' aren't even alive anymore because of the stuff they did on stage.) and I see plenty of performers every year that say stuff over the top,
(some even get billed on this website ---and I respect them as performers and individuals, ---and find some of their stuff very funny and worth listening to.)
---but did you notice how they are billed as 'ADULT entertainment,' --and give folks fair warning with disclaimers?---that's called being responsible to your audience, -and to others.
---it's also called having tact, class, and respect.

If I let my kids listen to hard-core, and then I wonder why they sound like mysogenistic degenerates, -I'm an idiot. (because I'm an adult, I know better, -and I've been forewarned by the labelling.)

I just saw a lot of young kids coming from that show last night, --and was even surprised, a little, to read what I read this morning...

(---but even this morning's kick off remark was a good example of what Madonna is about... Controversy, making a stir, and being vulgar, ---as part of an image. -I dunno, maybe she really is that vulgar in person. I know folks who knew her before she'd hit back in the eighties, --and she had a mouth then too...) Hey, it works for her...

So I read it, saw the way that it was rolling, and decided to comment, -and some will get it, some won't. (...do I usually write like that??? in a way I always do, I just try to find different words to express myself...) I have a dark sense of humor, and am no stranger to sarcasm, --nor typing.

Point 2.

I bounced my letter on as a brief comment, ---with intentions of altering it, once it had been read.. (it was intended to have a brief shelf-life.)
-but ya know what?
I can't edit it...
(even though I'm logged in as me, and even though it wasn't that long ago that I wrote it to begin with...)

-remember that flame war between (maybe it was you?) and Anti??? I wrote a message to both of you on that,,, and then went back hours later and changed it to 'have a good day guys.' (It was basically, I respect the two of you too much to see the discussion end like this, we had people telling others to eat escrement...)
-Maybe it's a computer glitch somewhere,,, maybe not, who knows...

Maybe folks will take the time to read what was written, and those who take the time to connect the dots will say,
---'...hmmm, are we moving forward or backward by having shows like this?
-where people talk to our kids like this, (..when we don't talk to our kids like this...?)
---and they may discuss such things as,,, um, I dunno, responsibility in performance, or what is said in general,
--not because we have the freedom to say what we want,
---but because what we say (even from a Save-Mart Stage, as a Pop-Star,) has impact.

I have no interest in censorship, nor insulating people from reality, and promoting some sort of 'Pleasantville,' society... I do think that there is responsiblity in all things, --even music and art.

Just seeing something different, raising a concern, and putting my .25 cents in.

---it's kind of funny, like the 'Dude,' in Big Lebowski being asked by the lonesome drifter,
'...but do you have to use so many cuss words?' ---the response is hysterical.
-(...though it's not as funny when it's coming from the face of a 12 year old, or younger...)

plus, there wasn't too many kids there.
and that's a judgment from someone inside, not someone who drove past.

Seriously. What?

okay, I appreciate the clarification of Madonna calling members of the audience 'motherfuckers.' I feel better now.

I'm glad the show went well, she certainly has made herself a little empire based upon, um, talent and virtues. (okay, talent, she can sing, and I do like some of her songs...)

I did see a lot of kids in the crowd last night, as I drove past the center...

It is a bit awkward, I mean, in Manhattan it's not uncommon to hear everybody use the word 'fuck,' like 'Dude,' in BigLebowski... I'm kind of from that crowd myself... truth be told.

It's kind of odd, that it'd be seen as a good thing for a bunch of kids to be hearing it...
(I know, I know, it's a departure from Madonnas usual 'church-camp- sing-along persona... (well, aside from those awkward several hundred pages in the book 'Sex,' --with a variety of male and female persons face down in her crotch... ---but that was ART,and that was, well, art and therefore cool... And Lord knows, anyone who says that they don't enjoy oral sex is either lying or,, well, lying... -I thought the 'easy reader version,' was a caring gesture on her behalf... -besides, it's great marketing,,, -imagine how much more fun it'd be to go to the DMV with copies of it sitting around,,,)

I'm just sort of reconstructing the situation where someone who costs that much money to go see, calling audience members 'motherfuckers,' --with kids in the audience, -is a good thing...

-Gimme a minute, I'll get it...

uhh.... lesseee,,
-Madonna is a big star,,, we're not all trying to be prudes here,,, it is 2006,,, she's proven herself to be an erstwhile member of society,,, she does have talent, (well, she does...),,, we don't want to be considered some sort of backwater in society and culture, (I had someone call Fresno a hay-ghetto... -that was unpleasant,),,,
---and, whenever I've been caring for, or in the presence of 10 to 16 year old young men and women, I've always wanted them to understand how cool it was to call people 'motherfuckers,'
(...heck, if we were going into other more authentic forms of music, we'd hear all sorts of sexual acts, body parts, and unfortunate career paths every few seconds...)
---and we don't want not to be cool..

Okay,,,, so we now have kids running around calling each other 'motherfucker,' --but we've evolved culturally.

(..oh wait a minute, I DO live in a neighborhood where I have a few kids running around calling each other 'fucker and motherfucker,'
----but they're considered as disturbed and from abusive living situations, (well, thats what the 'backward' parents on the block say...)

Let me get back to you on this,, okay?
I think I can make this work...

-(maybe we can do some sort of mass-appeal and reconditioning thing... because 'motherfucker,' is a good thing.... -perhaps Wal*Mart greeters can start smiling and saying it,,, or they can sell T-Shirts with it across the front... No, wait, not hip enough...
---Okay, I got it, lets pick a couple of neighborhoods, cool, uncool, wealthy, poor, ---and have the local businesses train their staff to use the words in casual conversation, --or in confirming orders...
-maybe we need to contact Fisher-Price and get a 'motherfucker-Elmo going...'
---NObody with any sense will have a problem with that.

I'm sure I'll be memorable when I talk to my clients using 'motherfucker,' ---I'm sure blogging it will increase readership and make me sound so much more, um, authentic and sincere...

Oh... wait, Got IT!

---problem solved... Bono uses 'Fucker, and Fuck' all the time...
-whew... -and He just got Main of the year, and hangs with the Pope and Bush, and liberals too.... there we have it... (man, that was close, almost broke into a sweat...)

-better get those spelling primers ready for next years elementary school... (or better yet, summer school!!)

'Aa' -is for .....'

---havn't a clue what had Tipper so shook up about two decades ago,
-all those PMRC stickers warning parents of explicit lyrics... just a waste of trees and ink, if you ask me...

We loved, loved, LOVED the show! Save Mart Center people upgraded all of our seats (the kid and her friend ended up 3 rows from the stage!!), we were in lower risers. The show was well worth the time and money.

If you weren't there, she was entertaining. She did call people who threw stuff on the stage motherfuckers haha. It was deserved.

If you have the time and a few bucks, go tonight. You won't be disapointed.

I can't speak for Jarah, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't trying to imply that Madonna made up "Fres-Yes." But the fact that Madonna, who can seem pretty aloof, and who is rumored to not engage with the crowd at her concerts, even said it is what made it pretty funny.

She did look lovely calling us names. And I'm willing to go out on a limb and say a man who calls himself The Governor deserves credit for Fresyes.

If she were a 'rock star', that statement probably wouldnt have been an issue. Correct?

Thought not.

Salt. A grain. Take it.

wasnt that phrase coined by some amazing fashion designer at hollister....genius...haha..maybe they should switch to "inventing" phrases

let's not pretend madonna invented "fres-yes" please.

But damn if she wasn't cute when she called us "motherfuckers."

Madonna's words, not mine.

...motherfucker?