Fresno Famous

The opposite of walk...is walk

Wide sidwalks, relatively narrow streets, lots of trees, awnings, park bench islands, mid-block crosswalks that extend from the parking zone on each side (narrow the crossing distance)...

It's not fast traffic or no traffic...it's "Sunday Traffic" and strollers ala structural change.

Fence in a few of those art pieces (like Festus in Clovis, David of Sassoun (hey, I'm not from here and I know about him... but there was a bench nearby and shade!) or famous things in St. Petersburg, Russia) and add a legend...people will stop.

I'd like to know why Fashion Fair is turning into a ghetto mall?

All the decent stores are outside.
The inside is going the way of Manchester.
Its safer at Fig Garden and River Pork.
Atleast they have real security at Fig Garden and River Pork

Forest City's plan / Santana Row facades

Back in 1999 I visited the area (near Winchester Mystery House) where Santana Row is now, it was a shopping center that reminded me of a run down Fig Garden Village. This last week 9 years later, I got to see this Santana Row, one part of it did remind me of Fulton Mall, but cars were allowed to drive down it's main short stretch of a mall like street. As I sat at one of the Cafés I thought I'd hate to be there when a car goes out of control like they do sometime from distracted drivers, and crashes in to the out door seating, But that's not really my point, I want 1964 original Fulton to stay as a walking mall, but the south part Fulton St. from Inyo (near Chukchansi Park) to Santa Clara St. (near Fulton St's dead end at highway 41) This Forest City plan area would be interesting to see developed in to a Santana Row like place, but I would still want the Art galleries and unique shops that have been there and are still there to be able to afford and have a shop there or some other area, because one thing about Santana Row was the shop choices were really not that different that a fancy mall else where in the state. In other words I liked the look but the shops got boring quickly I've spent more time looking around Yoshi Now than I did at any shop in Santana Row.

Downtown artwork

Hey "guest" that can't spell from somewhere else, you obviously no nothing of artwork and know less about Downtown. With all of your ignorance can you tell us the history of the Fulton Mall? Or anything about the Fulton Mall sculpture’s; like the Renior? Go to Arthop and give yourself an education of Fresno.

Fulton Mall

"Why are they so successful and Fresno struggles?"

Civic pride on the part of elected officials, after all the "mall" is city owned property!

Abe Lopez

No one cares

I am not orginally from Fresno, but can tell you I have become quite comfortable here. The mountains, the oudoors, the decent city life, afforadbility in CA. I like the Grizzlies games and for a AAA park it is dang nice.

But how cananyonedefend the Fulton mall. Artwork? Why preserve something no one eveen goes to look at. I had jury duty a few weeks back and would walk from from parking lot by the stadium to the courthouse twice a day. The only people I saw "enjoying the artwork" where homeless people and beggers.

I am suuming this blind defense of Fulton Mall is the reason I understand the City hasn't touched it and is focuing on Kern Street now. Theycan actually get something done without people saying "protect the artwork no one goes to look at"

Fresno is a city of 500,000 people with not even half the attractions other cities have of the same size: Portland, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Tucson. Why are they so successful and Fresno struggles?

Fulton mall is part of world heritage - appreciate it!

Just ran into this 2003 UNESCO publication (2nd paper) that lists the Fulton Mall as one of the World Heritage "works of modern landscape architecture have been altered, destroyed or are currently at risk":

Preserving and interpreting modern landscape architecture
in the United States: Recent developments (1995 - 2001)
by Charles Birnbaum
http://whc.unesco.org/documents/publi_wh_papers_05_en.pdf

Good point, but can't

Good point, but can't someone just like the mall the way it is? the gay marriage argument is a persuasive one, but the metaphor seems a bit stretched. depriving another human being of their rights shouldn't be considered on par with the fate of 'concrete' as you put it. And by the way, come see my band play on Teusday @ Starline so I can give you your copy on Cadillac Desert back.
-with love, ej

hole-in-the-wall

in Pasadena's Colorado Blvd, there's this little hole-in-the-wall plaza that you walk in from what used to be an alley (I guess), there's a "Johnny Rockets" as the plaza opens up, an AMC theater (4-plex), up-scale shopping, art, benches (no parking, its totally pedestrian).

I don't think parking, street presence are hindrances to the Fulton Mall, its us, we don't think big enough, diff enough or we're set in our ways & too blind to see?

Fulton Mall is capable of being better, it's already bigger than that little hole-in-the-wall plaza.

it just needs people that are a little more adventurous, not scared of the different,

do what the "Creative Council" did, walk the Mall, look at the art, visit City Hall, walk around

try Nov, for the Veterans Day Parade, stay a little longer, tour the artwork,

go to the "Legion of Valor" Museum on Fresno St, between N & O streets,

btw, it's the national museum of memorabilia from Metal of Honor winners

http://www.legionofvalormuseum.org/

open Mon thru Sat; 10AM to 3PM

re: why are TG, Mezcal & Fagan's on the street-side?

The mall, beautiful as it is, is (literally) a roadblock to private investment. If you're loaning someone money to open a restaurant, you're more likely to loan it to someone who is going to be on a street and visible, not in a dark corner of an empty pedestrian mall. Would any of the hi rise buildings along Fulton have been built there if the mall was there in say 1920 instead of a BUSY street?

why are TG, Mezcal & Fagan's on the street-side?

ask yourself where all the people park? there ain't no parking there except a few metered ones

the owners choose those sites, I guess, because they were visible as you drive by, but then you have to park

we are all caught in the dichotomy of:

"a place to go, but no place to park"

listen, there are thousands of people working DT, but few stay past 5

we need more after 5PM programs; I guess Fagan's, TG & Mezcal can all hold about 200 people all together

childcare on the Mall might keep more harried workers from rushing home

a "3rd place" as the Creative Council says

johnny come lately

you're the new kid in town...

wow, you're jumping in full force to a thread that's developed over months. over this time, there has been public meetings to gather input, a report prepared, and all this info will soon be presented to the city council. from there, more work can continue.

this isn't just talk. there is plenty of action happening downtown and on the mall. but change takes time. and, it starts with talking, planning, and decision making. if we just rush into decisions without weighing the options, we usually end up with poorly planned, ill advised failures.

i'm sure that we'd all love for the fulton mall to be made perfect yesterday. but it's not. and it won't be fixed tomorrow. hopefully it will eventually become what we envision for it. i think we all can understand the frustration over the pace at which change happens. but that doesn't mean we give up the process.

one more thing...

traffic or no traffic? well, there are popsitives and there are negatives. Weigh them both to make a decision. See, talking about the pros and cons doesn't promote action. It promotes talking.

Who is designated to literally document both options and deliver an analysis? No one? Maybe that's our first problem? The onyl way to make a decision is to present researched facts on paper that decide for us.

This is Step One to the issue fo traffic vs. no traffic. See...talking can end and action can begin. Great concept, huh?

Also, I've heard all sorts of mention of other downtown revitalization projects that were successful, but no mention of the most successful one in US history...SAN ANTONIO's Riverwalk. Beautiful and successful and still thriving. Check out photos online to see for yourself.

resistance to change...

by so many of you is sooooo frustrating? The MAJORITY Fresno County/City citizens do NOT go to Fulton Mall, let alone go to enjoy the art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't have to like this fact, just accept it as reality. Fond memories you say? Well, that's the beauty of memory. We can all close our eyes and remember a place and a time.

This bickering back and forth is useless and a waste of productive time. Facts:

1 Fulton Mall is NOT a City attraction today.
2. Downtown Fresno could be a wonderful, cutlural Central Business District full shops and art and eateries and cafes and PEOPLE!

Why are so many opposed to this positive change? Why? What is it you're afraid of? Let's all stop talking and start doing. Someone tell me what to do to make this happen, and I'll do it.

fmf

if it had cars, it would not be unique, you would need to move the art
it would just be as dead, until you raze the whole thing, lets face it, most people like only new things, say River Park 3 x's
next big zone will be Copper River, then Foothills, till we touch the National Forests, then people will really start to move to Madera from a trickle to a flood
then to Mariposa, till Sac & Fres meet, by that time Bay Area will have merged with Sac, LA will have already taken up Bacasfield, racing over to Delano to beat Bay-Sac-Fres megalopolis to the punch
welcome to the future
who needs cars still?

fulton

it was Fulton Berry

early Fresnan, owner of hotel building by J Street & Mariposa

http://www.valleyhistory.org/PandP/fultonstreet.html

fulton mall "folly"

That makes sense if you're talking about mall doubters in 1964. (being scared of "something different") But the mall proponents won, they got the mall built, and now, over 40 years later, the doubters look like they were more correct in their view of what the mall would do for downtown. If you looked at the crumbling buildings, vacant storefronts, broken fountains, cracked pavement, etc, it's hard to imagine this is the scenario that the mall proponents would have predicted. The mall is no longer some new concept where "people are afraid of something different". It's got a long track record, and not a successful one.

NFD

no fucking duh... it's not named for Robert Fulton. I never said it was, it's reference to the 'Fulton's Folly' that was never a folly just stupid people who got scared of something different.

If the Mall gets turned back in to a Street, it's name should be reverted back to 'J st.' like it was when it was first planed out.

Re: Fulton Street

Fulton Street was not named for Robert Fulton. It was named for a prominent early Fresno business owner.

And if being unique was all the communinty wanted for Fulton, this current debate wouldn't be taking place today. It's unique right now, everyone agrees with that. But it seems the consensus in the community is (regardless of what side of the pro-mall/pro-street side of the fence you fall) that the current situation has to improve, and unique is not enough.

Robert Fulton

On the banks of the Hudson one day in 1807, crowds gathered to watch Robert Fulton, an artist-turned-engineer, show off his steamboat. They called it "Fulton's Folly." they laughed at the absurd boat that became the first successful steamship. besides the fools at the time calling it 'Fulton's Folly' they called it 'Fulton's monster' because of all the smoke and noise it would make when steaming down the river.

"The surprise and dismay excited among the crews of these vessels by the appearance of the steamer was extreme. These simple people, the majority of whom had heard nothing of Fulton's experiments, beheld what they supposed to be a huge monster, vomiting fire and smoke from its throat, lashing the water with its fins, and shaking the river with its roar, approaching rapidly in the very face of both wind and tide. Some threw themselves flat on the deck of their vessels, where they remained in an agony of terror until the monster had passed, while others took to their boats and made for the shore in dismay, leaving their vessels to drift helplessly down the stream. Nor was this terror confined to the sailors. The people dwelling along the shore crowded the banks to gaze upon the steamer as she passed by."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fulton

Once again... you can only have a Mall or a Street... you put the cars back on it and it will only be Fulton Street ... J st ... but with cars on it... it can not be a Mall.

mall (môl, ml)n.
A large, often enclosed shopping complex containing various stores, businesses, and restaurants usually accessible by common passageways.
A street lined with shops and closed to vehicles.
A shady public walk or promenade.

there are streets everywhere but Malls are Unique.

Fulton Folly

I have a love affair with the Fulton mall. I discovered it in my late teens, after taking an art class at COS in Visalia, and learning that the mall had several important sculptures. When I moved to Fresno to finish my undergrad degree, I'd spend Saturday afternoons on the mall, sometimes taking taco bell to the homeless folks and just hanging out.

In my later 20's, I discovered urban dwellings, and realized that downtown Fresno was the only place in Fresno that could potentially feature beautifully constructed live/work spaces in architecturally relevant yet underutilized structures. Not long after that, I started to meet people who shared a common vision.

It was during this time that I first discovered 'vision 2010.' I really liked a lot of the ideas presented. However, one that really, really bothered me was the idea of opening the Fulton to motor traffic.

I've lived downtown for a while now. I walk and bike all over downtown, mostly during summer evenings. Fulton mall is one of my favorite destinations. I see the possibilities, I see the potential for an amazing urban context there. As it is, it feels like a ghostown, a relic, like there should be a tour guide dressed in 1960's garb, elaborating on the genius of the idea of the mall.

From my perspective, as the mall exists, it is no longer relevant. The retail and office/potential residential spaces are neglected. It is a waste of great potential, beautiful structures, and a historical context that is broader than the pedestrian mall established in 1964.

I went back and read the 'vision 2010' report tonite. I have to say that over the last 5 years, my ideas for Fulton street have shifted, and I resonate with the ideas generated by the people who researched and assessed downtown Fresno/the Fulton mall back in 1999.

Open up the streets. Link downtown with motor traffic. Maintain wide pedestrian walkways. Create attractive storefronts. Creat live/work spaces above the retail. Re-use the beautiful old high rises that are boarded up and in sad states of disrepair. Place the existing artwork in a way that better features the pieces and makes them more accesible to the general public.

Someday, someone with resources and a vision will recognize the amazing potential that Fulton street has for linking the developing cultural arts district and the planned multi-million dollar mixed-use development south of Grizzly Stadium, as well as China Town and the Civic Center/theoretical hotel. Fulton mall, a dead and sad relic of a great idea that never really worked, can once again become the major artery for a newly realized urban Fresno.

I'd like to add that during my evening strolls or bike rides down Fulton mall, I've never encountered another person in my age group, or any age group, who attends public meetings and fights to keep Fulton mall closed to motor traffic. When are people who love the Fulton mall, and protesting to keep the mall exclusively pedestrian, using the mall?

not a mall

Fig Garden Village is not a MALL it's a Shopping Center ... there is a difference.

River Park is another shoping area.

The Palms at Kearney is a shoping Center

Fig Garden

I do like Fig Garden especially over River Park . River Park is very hard to walk from one business cluster to another as you have noted. I wanted to say that I find Fig Garden rather hard to cross especially when I have my kids in tow. It is easy to walk along one end to the other, but if you try to cross, even where they have the one central walkway you still take your life into your hands. I wish they had a bulb out at that spot to lessen the amount of asphalt you need to cross.
I did like the activty or the percieved activity at Santana Row. Maybe it is the limited car traffic that makes it look active. Like you said, it is a little cute and precious and not quite ,natural, if that is the right word for a man made structure. Maybe organic is the right word?

Santana Row juxtaposed to Fresno

I live a mile from Santana Row. It is a very well done mall including its streets down the middle. During the busy times - mostly weekends and nights when the weather is nice, they block the streets. When not so busy, the roads are open which gives it the appearance of always being active.

And when it's not so busy, people can drive through and survey what's there.

I couldn't tell you what's on the Fulton Mall. Why would I want to walk the entire way just to make a spot decision where I want to eat or shop. I'm too busy most of the time to stroll for a long period. I'm not lazy nor averse to walking. Other areas of reference (yes, they're really mini-downtowns) in the Bay Area are Los Gatos, Campbell, Willow Glen and many other areas.

In these places you can:

1. Drive through
2. Park behind the business in lots
3. Park in the adjacent neighborhood and stroll the entire length.

Each is an option. Here's one for you in Fresno: Fig Garden Village. What's so great about that mall? All the above (except that you park in the middle). The businesses are close together and are drivable or walkable at the same time. Compare that to the River Park, an abomination, where it's drive or sweat. The businesses are in disjointed clusters. Why was that a good idea?

Fresno could use a Santana Row, whether on new land or derived from the Fulton Mall. Yeah, it's a little bit cute, even precious, but better than a lot of other options.

Re: Walking the mall

With nothing better to do on a 113 degree day, I spent some time this weekend walking the mall, with attention to the surroundings, etc. What I found was interesting. Some areas are very well kept, with the fountains running quite well (Kern Street mall in front of the stadium). Others are a landscaping disaster, such as the overgrown planter in front the of the Bank of Italy. Most of the water features are in need of some serious work. The water is often a translucent murky, shade of green, filled with leaves and debris. Many of the fountain jets don't work. The concrete is often cracked and in poor condition. Some areas are filled with litter and pine needles, which tells me the upkeep could be improved quite a bit. Here's a "before and after" photo of the mall from Tulare Street looking north 1964 vs. 2006. I posted more photos from my walk on the Fresno Famous flickr pool.

If what you say about the mall is true

If what you say about "removing" the mall is true, how is it that other cities that don't have pedestrian malls have more vibrant downtowns than Fresno's? Even cities of similar size and type (not just cool coastal destinations). You imply that removal of the mall would devastate downtown. Others might say the same about keeping the mall intact. And the past 40 years would perhaps back that up.

Also what many are proposing is to simply change the mall, reconfigure it, or at least consider that option. It might be as small as new landscaping, moving some planters to make better pedestrian flows around the shops (as Craig has pointed out in many places the current design directs pedestrians AWAY from the shops!) It's not a choice between just keeping it the way it is, or removing everything. Maybe something in between.

You talk about the suburban shopping centers and they way their mall management lured new tennants to the mall. They all have something that the Fulton Mall doesn't have - MALL MANAGEMENT! A big part of the problem downtown is absentee landlords and banks (who own or owned many of the big buildings after their owners went belly up). There is no cohesive mall management downtown as you would find at say Fashion Fair. The Macerich co maintains the property (buildings and landscaping, etc) they work to lure new tennants, etc. Of course, removing the mall doesn't solve this problem for downtown. However, it might be easier to get a bank to secure financing for renovation of the big buildings down there if there was traffic on the streets.

what if you knew that

what if you knew that opening to traffic would make things better? would you be for it?

a really great mall

yes the Fulton Mall is really great, this is why we are having this discussion, (no one is really talking about the other Malls) Speaking of the other Malls how do people even know whats in those malls you when can't drive down them? is it because there are signs in the parking lot?

There are streets in north Fresno with smaller hi-rise building on both sides of the street except those building are so removed from the street do to the massive parking lots that surround those buildings.

If the Mall is opened to Cars then it would not be a Mall, and there would not be anything unique besides that there are old hi-rise building and each side of the street. The only vehicles that should be allowed on the Mall are Bicycles or electric carts. ... But ripping up the Mall to turn it back in to a street, would be devastating as much as when the the Fresno rail lines were taken out and when the old Court house fell.

If the Mall is turned back in to a street then they might as well just tear up all those vacant old hi-rise buildings too, and replace it all with that modern river park suburban look you see in new developments everywhere.

The real problem with the mall has happened to Fashion Fair and Manchester... big retailers have left those Malls over the years but the Malls management was able to get other retailers or businesses to fill in those vacancys. remember Liberty House, even the place that replaced it did not last that long until CalTrans too that spot. and don't forget when Weinstocks closed at Fashion fair, but lucky Gottschalks too over that space and Macys took the old Gottschalks space. Too bad nothing like that ever happened on the Fulton Mall.

I think the Mall should be turned in to a downtown entertainment district surpassing what the Tower has to offer... and bringing back the entertainment in to the late hours like the area once did in the 1920's according to what the history books say.

Fulton Mall

I completely agree with Craig. I too have fond memories of going to the Fulton Mall in the 60's as a kid with my parents or other family members. However, its time to get real. The thing is a pig. Businesses have been hanging on by a thread and in reality, the pedestrian mall has outlived its useful life. Its time to put a 1 way street down the center of the mall with diagonal parking. This would increase exposure and visibility and ultimately, business. If I remember correctly, the loudest advocates of keeping the pedestrian mall were a select bunch of civil servants so they would have a place to sit and eat their sack lunches. Well, who cares. They can go to a break room or sit on the curb and watch the cars go by.

Yes, it is disturbing that

Yes, it is disturbing that 170 of the 200 pedestrian malls have ceased to be. I read through the site on the Boulder, CO mall that is sucessful. The college near by with lots of students with no cars definetly helps lead to more pedestrians. As was mentioned the University of Oregon is near the Eugene, OR mall, and they are working to allow cars through again. I was there six years ago and it was really dead. The Boulder mall also has a city of citizens who like to bike or walk. In Fresno, it is necessary or very hard not to, drive a car. We maybe too stacked against us to make it work without some traffic allowed on the mall.

Fulton will always be unique

By its very nature, Fulton Street will ALWAYS be unique. It's the only street in Fresno that could really pass for being in a major urban setting, (if only it actually was a street). There is no other street like it in Fresno with hi rise buildings on both sides. You mentioned "will allowing traffic hinder it?" (shopping locations and housing)

Well, based upon all the vacant storefronts and dilapidated buildings, it doesn't seem to be doing a good job right now of helping. Again as Scharton said, what do all those other cities that took out or modified their pedestrian malls know that we don't?

Fulton Has to Stay Unique

I would in no way want to turn the Mall into just another downtown street, indeed it would have to be more unique then any other street downtown. The question is how best to do that. It is already the most unique stret in all of Fresno, but, it also not used to any where near its capacity.
There maybe some merit to the thought that people who remember the Fulton Mall in its heyday want it to stay as it is, and, those who have only seen its recent demise think it should change. I fall in the middle, as a native Fresnan born in the same year as the mall was constructed. I can vaguely remember window shopping with my parents and siblings on a Friday night downtown ,and even though all the shops had already closed for the evening, there were people like us walking around. I can remember tracing the rock patterns around the mall as we worked our way up the mall. I remember shopping on the mall as I was a teenager, at Gottschalks, Penney's and Woolworth's,visiting my grandparents at Masten Towers, but, I also remember at the time seeing it changing every year and not for the better. Now twenty five years later, there is still Masten Towers, but, the rest have all left. I eat on the mall and go to Grizzlies games, but, I have not shopped there for years. Having housing near by would increase the shopping locations, but, which will go first? Will allowing traffic spur that or hinder it? Yes, the mall has to remain unique, but, it has to be relevant as well.

Re: Fulton & 41

First, those other malls were not originally main streets. They are private buildings, all owned by one owner, managed by one management company, and are in suburban locations.

Second, it doesn't matter that Fulton doesn't cross the Freeway. Really, it doesn't. Make a left turn on Ventura, and the traffic flows just fine. The traffic on Van Ness largely doesn't go south of 41 either, so it's not a big deal. Also, Fulton is "unique", but great by what standard? By art? Yeah, great statues. But if it was really great, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Also was Fulton Street unique in 1962, or 1932 or 1902 when it was a street? Maybe unique in this sense is not what Fulton Street needs.

the other malls

I imaging my self driving down Fashion Fair Mall, Manchester and Sierra vista Malls, but wait If I could drive down those Malls they would not be Malls any more.

mall (môl, ml) n.
A large, often enclosed shopping complex containing various stores, businesses, and restaurants usually accessible by common passageways.
A street lined with shops and closed to vehicles.
A shady public walk or promenade.

J St. (Fulton) was once a main street, but when Freeway 41 was built it cut off the south end of the street making it dead end street (notice very few cars drive that south of Fulton Street, from the Mall to the dead end at 41) ... I say Keep the Fulton Mall as a Mall (maybe even extending it to the dead end at 41) BUT IF IT was Turned back in to just another downtown street would take it's uniqueness away, this is what makes the Fulton Great.

I do wish I could ride my bicycle on the mall.

Re: Art Crime

It would hardly be a crime if the Fulton Mall statues were moved to a real sculpture garden at a local museum (or repositioned downtown) and Fulton Street was returned to what it WAS SUPPOSED TO BE (a street!) In fact the ENTIRE MALL, fountains and all, could be moved to a new location, if the concrete is deemed so important. I can hear the critics right now, "oh, but that would take it out of its original context!" Well, guess what - the surroundings on Fulton today are quite a bit different than they were in 1963, so that's a moot point.

Again, the mall was created to serve downtown, not downtown created to serve the art. But that's the way we've been thinking about it for years "the mall is more important than downtown itself." The idea has failed. Think of it this way: look at all the big buildings along Fulton Street. They were all built before the mall. Do you think that if that the city had built the mall there, say in 1916, instead of 1963, that we would have any of those major buildings there? NO. They were built there, and the businesses located there becasue that was the MAIN STREET of Fresno. The mall, as long as it is there in its current form ensures that it will NOT be the main street of Fresno, and thus we won't see many new businesses there, improvements to buildings, etc. Sculpture gardens are nice, every city should hsve a great one, but they rarely attract the kind of business investments that the Fulton corridor needs right now.

fond memories

I went to the last two Fulton Mall meetings (one which was predominantly pro-traffic on mall, and the other not) and discovered a certain sentiment. It seems that what binds the no-traffic folks together are fond memories. Almost all of them had frequented the FM as children and looked back on those times with warm fuzzies. Don't get me wrong, my memories give me the warm fuzzies too - but I want the mall to be more than a memory. Lets get past the assurance of what we have seen and know, and open ourselves up to an evolutionary process. Imagine driving down the mall and seeing tons of people hanging out and shopping. Thats a picture that makes me feel ReaL good inside.

Pierre Auguste Renoir Grande Laveuse

What would it take to steal the Renoir Bronze Sculpture from the out door mall. I figure under the cover of fog in winter, a truck with a fork life should be able to pull the job off quickly. But then what do you do with that possible million dollar French impressionist art piece, how easy or hard would it be to sell on the black market? I get if you could get it out of the county to some art dealer that has no qualms about stolen art, you could make some criminal money, but it would be a lot of work, and does anyone really want a bronze that has been sitting in the open weather for 40+ years, it's got to have lost it value compared to the few duplicate ones.

why fulton?

i was reading another blog on famous, attykendall, and it really made me think about this question, why fulton? i mean, why not allow fulton to slow grow, develop as a place for lofts, alongside of existing businesses, with new stuff as it adds in? that is, if the other streets around continue to develop/vitalize, why are we looking @ just fulton as the issue? hasn't the issue always been downtown as a whole? i know scharton isn't saying that it's the only issue, but when we divide it off from the rest, it sorta becomes like it's the solution to the problem, rather than being one piece in the puzzle.

i really want to see a thriving fulton mall, and i think good stuff is happening there. it's not all that it could be, but that takes time. as they say, rome wasn't built in a day.

so, new restaurants have or are popping up on van ness and kern. the stadium owners are trying to bring in more events there. the convention center people are still lobbying to get a huge connected hotel. eaton plaza is soon to open up a phase. club one seems to be jumping. the cultural arts district is coming along with housing. when i consider all these together along with what's happening on fulton i see a much brighter picture. and, it's not dependant on traffic on one particular street.

and now i call upon 3rd street promenade to provide an image of a walking mall, with busy streets around it, more than adequate parking that costs money - is this what fulton could be?

Re:Art Destruction

This is why this is a hard process. Everybody wants what is best for the downtown and the city, but, hard choices are going to have to be made one way or the other. As it has been said, Fresno has destroyed some of their past and have regretted it. Is this one of those, or, will it be the best plan for the mall?

Re: art destruction

The problem here is some people literally feel that the whole mall is a masterpiece of modern art and must be left untouched. The concrete, the benches, the lights, everything. Saying that the sculptures will be preserved isn't enough if you take that view. I understand that view, sympathize with it, but there's a compelling case that the greater good of the health of Downtown (which the art is there to serve, not the downtown to serve the art) means that changes need to be made.

Use the Art that is There

I cannot see why we couldn't use the art that is there, redesigned to , hopefully work with limited traffic. No, it will not be the same as before, but, hopefully it will be still aesthetically pleasing. We do not have to tak evey piece of art out and put it elsewhere. I know it was designed to fit in an overall scheme, but, it may work in a different arrangement ,and, maybe the mall will as well.

Destroy the art?

"So what you are saying then it is perfectly fine to desecrate art. Apparently you missed the part when the lady said the Fulton Mall (Plaza) was designed as an art landscape.

Please make your announcement prior to encouraging the city to destroy all of the artwork so that the people who like artwork can claim some of the beautiful sculptures that flood the Fulton Mall.

Furthermore, the Mall is nothing less than an outdoor art museum; you, of all people I thought recognized that."

Craig said why can't people consider making changes to the mall? Not "let's melt down the scultpures." Those are two different things and it's not intellectually honest to equate the two. It is an outdoor art museum, BUT above ALL else, it is STILL the MAIN STREET of Fresno. It was not built because people said "hey, we need an art museum, let's build on Fulton Street." It was built out of a notion that it would save downtown as the retail hub of Fresno. It FAILED. The art was secondary, and was not the reason the mall was built. As a museum it may be great, but they put it in the wrong place, and the art can be moved. I am sure one of our local musuems would love to receive from the city all the great works in the mall collection. It would make for one nice sculpture garden. Plus, they know a lot more about doing the "museum" thing than the city does. Fulton Street was meant to be a street with cars (even streetcars) and sidewalks and trees and tall buildings, not an art museum. As great as the art is in it's present location, the overall health of downtown is MORE IMPORTANT. Again, the art can be moved.

Fulton

Is there no way to be both a functioning mall and an outdooor art landscape? I would hope the mall will always be more interesting then any other "regular" mall, but, it needs to be a living and functional mall as well, and, it has not done a very good job of that the past 40 years. Incoporating what the mall has already as far as art ,into a mall with limited traffic could be done, albeit, changing the original artist's ideas. More cross traffic may help as well, again, limited, and with ways to make the pedestrian respected at the same time.

incorrect

incorrect

Fulton

So what you are saying then it is perfectly fine to desecrate art. Apparently you missed the part when the lady said the Fulton Mall (Plaza) was designed as an art landscape.

Please make your announcement prior to encouraging the city to destroy all of the artwork so that the people who like artwork can claim some of the beautiful sculptures that flood the Fulton Mall.

Furthermore, the Mall is nothing less than an outdoor art museum; you, of all people I thought recognized that.

Scharton, the man who hates artwork?

Downtown traffic

I was riding my bicycle north on Van Ness the other day, and as I stopped for the pointless stop sign between Belmont and Olive, a guy in a car stopped at that very same stop sign asked me how to get to the Greyhound station. I told him to go back the other way on the street "right over there," meaning Fulton, and then I realized that for all practical purposes, I was done explaining where to go, even though I knew the best way to get there myself. What with the scumIRS building that blockes traffic (and won't let you ride though, either - bike-unfriendly scum, but I repeat myself) and the Fulton Mall, it's really hard to get around Downtown, particularly for an outsider. And it's not as bad as it used to be, since there aren't as many one-way streets as there were, thanks to the efforts of the Downtown Association, under the able leadership of our now-demised/despised/diguised former President, the great Professor Scharton himself.
AttyKendall
P.s. - j/k about the first 2.

Re: Santana Row

Santana Row might not be the best comparison with the Fulton Mall, but your point about traffic is well taken. (Santana Row is a privately owned mixed use lifestyle development built from scratch on the site of a former regional shopping center). If one has a concern that Fulton Street be pedestrian friendly and lushly landscaped, that's all possible while still allowing traffic. If the concern is that any tampering with the mall will destroy one of the great masterworks of the 20th century, that issue doesn't matter, people will still oppose any change on those grounds.

Also it's interesting that you used the word "downtown mall" to describe Old Town Clovis. It's actually not a mall at all, they simply made landscape and hardscape improvements (new trees, sidewalks, lamp posts, and they kept it up). They also have standards for the property owners in the area. Merced has a similar program on Main Street. Closing the street the way they did in Fresno isolates the mall from the rest of the city and downtown. Also, after the mall was built, a large number of traditional, brick, multi story buildings on the north and south ends of the mall were torn down (for parking lots, Longs Drugs, etc), further taking the Fulton stores "out of context" with the rest of downtown. Opening it, while maintaing a well landscaped, pedestrian friendly environment keeps the good things about the mall currently, and just like removing a blood clot, restores the traffic flow that nature intended for what until 1963 was "Main Street" in Fresno.

the old roads

in the 1920's Highway 99 was known at Golden State Boulevard it was next to the Southern Pacific railroad tracks, if you where driving north in your Tin Lizzy, you would cross those tracks and enter Fresno on Van Ness (K Street) drive under the famous entrance sign to Fresno (in fact the sign that's there now is not the original sign) then jog over on Los Angles Street then north on J Street now known as Fulton then drive north on Fulton maneuvering about Fresno Traction Companies yellow and red birney (trolly cars) that crowd the Fulton street until you got to Stanislaus you would go right and over to Blackstone ave. past the amusement park known as Zapp's Park at Olive street... Blackstone was the rout to Yosemite what was pretty much old highway 41 ... but many years later after the final day of may 21th 1939 the last of Fresno's above ground "subway" rail system...and the start of Bus service, in the 1950's with the highway system.

but I looked it up and highway 41 really went like this...

"Before the current routing was established, Route 41 entered via Elm Avenue, then followed C Street to Fresno Street, where it ran with Route 180 multiplexed northeast to Broadway (US 99), then Route 41 continued north with US 99 to Stanislaus Street, and then north on Stanislaus to Blackstone Avenue." - from cahighways.org

but as you see 41 and 99 dumped people right in the center of downtown Fresno, if you want more people (tourists to stop here on their way to Yosemite or King's Canyon and Sequoia parks.

in the mid 1980's highway 41 did not go through the streets of Fresno and the Freeway was built, this was around the same time Gottschalks left the Mall and moved north.

what the Mall needs is something to really attract those people who just drive by everyday on 41 and 99 where the two freeways cross.

When I was spending lots of time in Chinatown from 2000-2004 I thought that the Kern rug water town should be panted in to a Asian pagoda style roof like the Buddhist temple has on E and Kern. Then it could be seen from the Freeways, and people would know were Chinatown is instead of north Fresno people saying there is a Chinatown?

but Like I said a $4 Million dollar 'Hard Rock Cafe' franchise structure in this south of stadium project (inset of a ass pro) with it's neon sign facing the 41 and 99 crossing, should get people to notice and stop for some rock n' roll memorabilia, and visit the thrift and art galleries near by. I mean don't you want a Hard Rock Cafe shirt that says Fresno on it than Sacramento? Southern California has four Cafes northern california has 3 we could be that 4th one, giving california 8 cafes...

Santana Row

I have thought about how Santana Row in San Jose http://www.santanarow.com/ has traffic going down it, with some parking, and it has a nice median boulevard, with a lot of the same items that Fulton Mall has: art work, benches, and fountains. If we were to use traffic calmers to keep cars slow enough to make it still pedestrian friendly, then I am for it. It will allow people to see the mall and the businesses on it, with out making it unpleasant to still walk on it. Having traffic will require a redesign of the mall, but, we can keep a lot of the same elements. Clovis' downtown mall has traffic yet I feel comfortable walking down it. I feel the traffic waits for me, and not the other way around.

I feel strongly...Both Ways

You might have missed the part where I said that I think it could work either way. I also think that it is worth exploring partial traffic.

You mentioned that navigating downtown is a nightmare. Fulton Mall was the first major roadblock to traffic, accompanied by a one-way loop. Van Ness was only changed back to two-way 12 years ago (we held a ticker tape parade down the mall to celebrate). So, not only is the Fulton Mall relatively quiet, it also acts as a roadblock for Fulton Street north and south of the mall.

I don't know that a vote on the issue of traffic vs. no traffic tells us any more than how many people are for and how many are against. The question is: what is the best way to revitalize this area, our original downtown?

Some people read the following quote and say "oh goodie, there are only 30 left aren't we special." Others wonder, "what do the ohter 170 know that we don't?" There is an interesting straw poll for you.

"Most of the pedestrian malls in the country have not succeeded," said Kennedy Smith with the National Trust for Historic Preservation's National Main Street Center, a Washington, D.C.-based group focused on downtown areas. "It's really a credit to Boulder that it has succeeded." Of the 200 or so pedestrian malls built during the past 40 years, Smith estimates only 30 remain today. (http://web.dailycamera.com/pearl/19xwor.html)

There are many folks with a variey of opinions, several of us have altered our options over the years and from our experiences here and elsewhere. I've actually lived on the mall, attracted investors to purchase buildings on the mall, attracted tenants to the buildings, started an all-ages dance club on the mall, tried to have city hall on the mall and even have UC build it's new campus on the mall (instead of Merced). So it's not like I haven't kicked a few ideas around (in and out of the box). But here we are...same discussion, different decade.

Craig
What is an authentic community?