sheesh, you're just as prolific of a writer in your blog posts as you are in comments elsewhere. ;)

but, i also think that this is a very well written piece, and thoughtful comments as well. i also appreciate that you're trying to respond to the minor brouhaha floating around fresno now.

Carlos

-didn't take the offer as a slant in any way.

In fact I've got a somewhat shopworn copy of the undercurrent here, (part of the cover sweated off, as it rode around in the back pocket for most of BikeHop.)
-it's a good mag. Newspaper.
I appreciate the offer, at the moment I'm doing most of my writing on my own blog (which I've neglected due to work,, --but I have this bad habit, eating, rent, electricity, phone, etc. etc.)
Bounce me an Email if there is something about this subject that you'd like to see gone into further, maybe I can help.

Re: Undercurrent.
I like it. (It has a nice combination of professional, -yet very approachable and local feel to it...)
-Keep up the good work.

(Re: valley is f...)
thanks for the comments.
There are actually a lot of folks who are Christians here in the area who are not comfortable with how the faith has been hijacked.
-There are a lot of stereotypical folks as well, and they can be quite caustic, but that's systemic and apparently world wide...

What is pretty wild, though, is that there have been Christians who've thrown down flags regarding the stereotypical behaviors,
--and have raised questions about blanket endorsements of countries, or pseudo-religious/political speech,
--but they tend to get attacked pretty viciously by the church.

On the bright side, one can be bitter and fierce for only so long,,, and then you sort of succumb to it, get charred up, and then come out the other side, having fallen into Grace, and are humbled a bit...

Overall, having been listening to some readings and having studied the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and having gone through air attacks myself, I find myself quite broken hearted at the inhumanity of it all.

Most anyone I know who has been in a conflict, with loss of life, and severe injury, says the same things, 'that they really didn't want to be there, they really didn't want to be shot at, they really didn't want to shoot anyone, and would have given anything to just drop their weapons, turn around and go home and leave each other be.'

I'm also reminded of how, when they declared war on Iraq, they had to cover 'the Guernica' with a black drape,
-else folks would have heard rhetoric,
-but instead see the anquish and terror of the first recorded airstrike, painted almost a hundred years ago by Picasso,
-and decided against it.

Re: Out of the Void comments:

thanks for the encouraging posts! how refreshing it is to see a distinction from the heart of Christianity to the Religious/Political Right.

WoW... You must be the world fastest typer. I can't keep up with you in a meaningful way, in a meaningful time frame. But let me say that the offer was genuine and the "more developed" comment at the end of my last post wasn't a cut. I was rereading it just now and it kind of sounded like that.
As always its been fun.
Take care,
Carlos

I do appreciate the response, as well as the opportunity to submit larger works, -should they be needed.

To address the comment regarding the mind of this local pastor:
(-shorter point,)
-I don't know what his personal perspective is. I've never met the guy, and don't claim to speak for him.
--His stance, (or the reasonings behind his comments, what you'll hear in his type of church, -has been around for decades.
I personally was highly trained in this mindset, (have changed a lot of understandings over the years, and no longer ascribe to some of the key understandings of this particular stance,(Dispensationalism being one.)
I know it quite well, and have studied and been a part of denoms that are heavily involved and influenced by these thoughts.
-It's for this reason that I hesitate to label his stance with such specific titles as 'heavy fundamentalist,' -simply because his remarks do not fit, nor run as deep as a heavy fundamentalist.
(...Sort of like simply labelling the bands YES or Emerson Lake and Palmer simply as 'prog-rock,' ---well, which eras ? which members? -and what does it say of such things as KingCrimson and Roxy Music??)
-it's not easy to label.

There is a general understanding of this type of religious mindset, and I'm trying to explain where they come from, --as well as how the govt. has ridden in on it for the past couple of decades.
I am not speaking for this pastor, only illustrating where some of these views come from, --and where they are also seen.

Regarding the historical peace between the sons of Abraham:
I agree that there have been times where everyone gets along just fine, (in a manner of speaking,) -and have several friends who've been on both sides of the tracks, religiously, who are Hebrew or Arab in their identity.
--What does happen, though, is a reinterpretation (at worst,) of their perspective texts, -or, (in the least,) kind of a tolerance of each other, --provided that they ignore some aspects, don't take others too seriously, and nobody wishes to proceed with any major plans.

Something that 'the church,' has been watching with baited breath for half a decade now, (Beyond Israel re-declaring herself, ---seen as similar to the Indians re approaching the Dutch, saying, '..here's your beads back, we've decided we want Manhattan instead, ---and getting it...'
-is the issue of rebuilding of Davids (Solomons') Temple.
I'll spare you all the details, (there are tons of information both in a secular and religious form on such,)
-but basically, 'the ultimate,' Temple of worship is due to be rebuilt in Israel, --really bringing full circle the worship practice of the Jews Internationally.
--They have already trained Rabbi's to do the sacrifices, have already been genetically (here in the US) reforming what are known as 'Red Heiffers' for the sacrifice, --have already recreated many of the known artifacts and elements for the Temple, --right down to the sacred robes, (all re done to strict rules, --with no allowance for modern interpretation.... it's sort of the ultimate recreation of History...)

One problem:
According to all known maps, where the temple is set to built is a small, (but signinficant,) Mosque.
(oops.)

When I speak of the Past and the Future, I am not speaking of a generalized compromise between these faiths, --I am looking at their origins, -as well as their ultimate claims and paths.
The orthodoxy of both of these beliefs are greatly intolerant of each other, (Because of who they are in 'Gods Eyes,' they cannot really tolerate each other for too long, -nor too deeply, without avoiding fundamentals.)

As odd as it is, there has been a strange combination of clarification and fundamentalism on one end (in Israel alone,) that has had very interesting outcomes.
-Again, there are the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox persepctives that are looking to serve diligently and purify their country.
-There is also the known desire to claim the rites as a people, -while individually being athiest or pluralist at times, (which also runs against the texts.)

Israel is quite peculiar, and quite different than a lot of countries in a lot of respects, She is known as 'the people of the Name.'
It is probably one of the only countries and people groups that litreally claim their identity and all that they are, purely upon what is thought to be God's intent.
Picture a court system, or running up the ladder higher and higher to authenticate one's actions, behaviors, identity, future, etc. etc....
We all know the idea of going from individual, to household, to town, to county, to State, to Federal to (what U.N.?) in terms of being heard and settling what is right and wrong.
-They take it right up to God.
(No other Nation does this... The present political regime in the US has been doing it, So did the Third Reich, as have a lot of other movements, some quite evil, some quite innocent,)

--but When you are founded so completely on a Metaphysical concept and all of your justifications go that far back, ---and that high up,
--there is a sense that one is 'untouchable,' when it comes to fulfilling the desire of a deity.
--So long as you remain within that 'deity's writings.'

We have all seen how people will justify their actions and reasons for doing bizarre things (even such as the Mormons, claiming Utah as a promised land, and creating plausable cities in the desert,,,) in the 'name of,' a God.
Regrettably, there are times, when one is supposedly 'hearing directly from God,' -but closer looks reveal mental illness, prejudice, group thought, even zeitgeist,
--being justified by putting it on a shelf too heavenly for anyone to approach, question, and correct.
(I do personally feel that is is possible to 'hear directly from God, but it's a personal belief, --the least of which has factors that such things do not run contrary to sanity and healthy behavior...)

When you consider that both Israel, and her Islamic neighbors take their cues from such an understanding, (we are dealing with a people group that defines the world as 'us,' and 'others,')
-The reasons and actions easily become self authenticating, and truly leave the rest to simply deal with the actions,
-oft' times with the main explaination being 'God told us to do this, if you don't understand, you don't have to, you are not hearing from God.' (difficult to swallow, at best.)

It is from these (way past polar,) persepectives that I'm explaining how the followers of YHVH and Alah view themselves and others.

(What is a bit odd, that most Americans don't know, or don't want to address is:
When cosulting the sacred texts of (even) Christianity, there is no mention of the United States whatsoever.
-There is a vague passage about something called 'the Lion's Cub,' (which could be seen as an off shoot of England.) --but it's really a stretch.
According to the sacred texts of even the Christians, (The Bible,) the United States is not mentioned at all during the major play out of these two great religions, (Islam-Israel,) ---nor are we mentioned as a country when other countries and ancient civilizations are, (and it gets pretty specific, Iran, Russia, Turkey, the Teutonics, etc.)

This obvious void of the United States from such Biblical events, has been offset here Stateside, with the view, for the past four to six decades, (especially since Isreal refounded in '48,) has been that everything is going to go on in the Mid-East, and the Church (Christians,) will be 'raptured,' (all of those LeHaye books, Hal Lindsay, etc...)
---This also explains why so many pastors take a view at times that 'things can go to blazes in a bucket, --and that there is little we really can do (as the church,) --because it's sort of on rails, and because 'we're getting out of here, anyway.'
Again, as with the two previously mentioned religions, Christians, (some more than others,) tend to look at world events and political issues from the interpretation of their sacred texts.
-This is heavily affected by HOW they view their texts.

Some (Christian)denoms don't really buy into 'rapture,' and just see it is a very poetic thing, more of a mystery but not literal.
Some have sold their posessions and predicted exact dates and times of this, (otherwise known as 'the Lord's Return,) ---the chief culprits in this being guys like Harold W. Camping, a lot of Trinity Broadcast Network types, etc.)
There are the occasional groups that are found on hillsides watching and waiting, (a memorable one from Korea about ten years ago, who literally did just that...)
---All camps are working with sections of the text that are prophetic in nature, -and given to interpretations that can be wildly different.

Without being crass, If I could explain, there are pastors who take a very direct stance.
'-Those who are going to be known by God are known by God.
'-Those who are going to reject God, will/have done so and are doomed anyway.
'-Those who are Loved by God, and Known by God will be spared.
'-This earth is not permenant, and is slated for demolition and complete rebuild by God.
(Therefore)
-what happens in terms of wars, rumors of wars, disease, famine, weather problems, (etc.) are all signs of a dying planet... and that things will get worse prior to the big demolition/rebuild.
'-There is a view that anyone who follows God will be saved from not only the destruction of the world, but what is known as 'the tribulation,' (wars, disease, famines, weather issues,,, etc.)
--This would be the majority view of most vocal churches in the U.S.

Because of need on behalf of the church, (again, some more than others,) to see these puzzle pieces come together, --there have have been leaders and people within it, who have rushed the process, and are looking to see this world end, --another one begin.
--Again, most unfortunate, as it causes an escapist attitude, and is completely the opposite of what the church was put here to do, (which is to heal, comfort, feed, nurture, encourage... (refer to earlier post speaking of the issue of 'judging,' as a medical professional, --Not as a vigilante-executioner...)

Something that folks have always seen in the church, (which I admit has been a horrible fault, and seek to correct in my own life, as does my church/congregation,) is that there is a human tendency to look at world events, -or the events in one's own life, in a self-serving way.
It's as basic for some folks as choosing euthenasia over a long suffering death.
(Why go through prolonged agony?)
--Some people look at this planet, --as well as the wars and issues of the Middle East, --as a drawn out agony.
-Regrettably this pastor is (possibly,) looking at the situation as one where you will loose several thousand, perhaps million, --but establish some sort of peace and order, (so he's willing to hack off a few limbs to 'save the patient.'
---That he's hacking off not just gangrous fingers,
--but heads, is a clear sign that he's following some sort of interpreted rule,
--rather than overwhelming examples of God's Grace, (or simply common sense.)

To look at this world, this life, ones own life, or one's country from a self-serving perspective is the total OPPOSITE of considering others first, -and the aiding and assisting of them.
(Kind of a basic fact, but when your eyes are on yourself, and that is who you are in love with, --that is who you serve.) The Church is supposed to have their eyes on their God, -and follow that God's cues and directions, (not to mention example.)
Last time I checked, Christ did get pissed off and clear out a church that had become a side-show/rip off center, where the church was taking advantage of those coming to worship,
-but He didn't kill anyone...
(Had this awkard habit of healing the terminally ill and outcast, and raising from the dead a lot of folks...) --but no, no destruction of human life.

During these days, where such dramatic things are coming to a head, (be it a minor or major one,) those who take cues from those events, will be doing and saying equally strange things, (hopefully not mounting airstrikes.)

As our present government has painted itself into a corner of following a (somewhat) fundi 'pro-Israel right of wrong,' stance, (which probably has little to do with religious beliefs, I see the govt. as using Religious beliefs because they are convenient and easy to sway people with,) we are about to see some very strange behaviors, (regrettably,) on our shores, and with our military and funds, as always, (as has been very much the norm, recetnly, -there will be a lot of pseudo religious justifications, and 'Christianity,' will be cited as the reason.)
Various churches will tie in with this, again, some stronger than others.

My advice: Read what the churches are reading, then read what they should be reading, (for example, the Bible) in it's entirety for yourself, then draw your own conclusions.

(I'm sure people will say 'forget it, have you seen the length of the thing? ---but there have been works far longer, (Tolkein, Rawlings, Stephen King, Koonz, etc. etc. etc.) and people's attention spans are not as short as they would have you believe... It's actually a series of books and letters, just bound by one cover and is available in so many translations, that it's quite easy reading.)

Not as easy, but you can read the sacred texts of the Hebrew Faith, (much of which is found in the Bible as well, (called Old Testament,)
-as well as read the Islamic texts.

I just find it important to actually know what it is that one is forming opinnions about, ---as well as read other's texts to understand why they feel and act the way that they do.

This is not written to tell anyone to go to one church, or belief or another.

I would recommend, that if one is a person of worship, who is seeking to follow a sacred text,
--that they consider that most of this has been foretold for thousands of years,
--and be about the business of any benevolent deity,
--which would be to take care of the sick, comfort the poor and bereft, feed the hungry, be strong for the elderly and those who have no voice,
--and make every effort to love those with actions, restore their lives, and sleep well, knowing that on a very personal scale, others have been cared for in the name and spirit of such a deity.

-Have more people in larger groups likeminded?
-Then take care of larger groups...

This pastor's views will go the way of all things, giving him so much ink may only fuel an unnecessary fire.

I do know that in the hearts of Jews and Muslims both, (at least all the ones that I know,) there is a desire for peace and healing.
Folks are just trying to get through the day, same as anyone.

It is my prayers that some sort of peace will occur.
If the current trends towards clarified Orthodoxy continue, I don't see this happening (at least in Israel,) until it is a purely Israeli state, 'on her terms,' --which will be quite difficult, as Muslims (again,) have a divine ownership of some of the same areas.

War is a horrible thing, I don't really in all honesty see it as ending anytime soon, nor do I have some sort of happy disney ending to this whole scenario, at least not in this age.

I do see, however, tons of people who need help, and have personal directions (again, my personal view,) to assist them.

For me that is the better focus.

The contentious aspects I refered to were the historical apsects as well as the perscriptions to the future. It is not true that these two peoples (Arabs and Jews) have been fight forever, nor is it true that they will, as if it is almost out of their control, continue to fight forever.

So when you wrote "So they're not only fighting over history, they are fighting over futures as well." You don't take into account the times when there was peace among Jews and Arabs, or even when they fought together at times against Christians during the crusades. One should look to Lebanon as well where you have significant Jewish, Christian, and Muslim populations. Especially now with a very stong, new found solidarity when Muslims from the south of Lebanon have been forced to move north and are living among and with both Christian and Jews who have taken in fleeing Muslims from the south.

I think this is what you would consider the more basic or fundamental aspects of each of these religions, that are forgotten when some people grasp onto one part of their religion that justifies some belief that is unjustified with regard to the larger picture, within the religion or society.

I do find it odd that you say that you can't speak to his motiviation, when that is what you do throughout your posts. You ascribe fear as being a possible culprit, or the desire to be obedient for his thought process. It seems that rather than not being able to speak to his motivations you simply disagree with my ascription of his motivation in favor of your own. I would say that the movtivating factors that you raise likely play a part, but I think American Expectionalism, Nationalism, Patriotism hold more sway. Which is why it would seem that he is ok with killing Christians in Lebanon, first and foremost they are not Americans, second they are not our allies.

In any case this has been interesting, if ever you have an idea for a longer more developed piece let me know we are always looking for submissions from community members.

'...I think some of what you write is a bit more contentious than you make it out to be,'
(undercurrent editor)

'...but that aside I think that you misplace the motivation of "Rev." Franklin's thoughts.'
(ditto.)

Re: first quote:
I am having difficulty with understanding the statement -please elaborate, (my writing is more contentious? the subject matter? you feel I'm downplaying??? -it's an awkward remark, and I'm trying to place it within context, again please elaborate.)

Re: second quote:
Having not personally sat down and talked with Reverend Franklin, I cannot speak for his motivations.

The concept of following hard after a particular religious structure, (even within Christianity,) lends itself to at times missing the point of the basic teachings.
-Often times you'll hear, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged...'

However, we are also called within these texts to ascertain, judge, and be able to discern... -what to do?

Being somewhat involved with medical practice over the past twenty years, (taking a break of late,) I can tell you that when I am dealing with a person, and need to ascertain their physical and medical, (as well as mental,) state, --there is a judgement that needs to happen.
-fixing someone's furniture,,, -same, professional judgement required.
-Driving a car, --folks are depending on my judgement of distance and speeds, (etc.) so that I don't run them over...

It's the 'judgement to damnation,' that is the true culprit.
Judging a situation means to take full stock of it, and completely understand it.
--From a Medical perspective, it's judging the person's condition, --and taking that information and using it in every possible way to help that individual, that group, that theory, (etc.)

The regrettable aspect of 'this particular,' aspect of this pastor's stance is that he is following a rule, and loosing sight of the creator of the rule, --and the heart and thoughts of that creator.
-So, in effort to be obedient to (his understanding,) of the rule, he advocates something completely wacked according to the founder of the rule, (killing a bunch of people with an atomic weapon, --or killing anyone at all.)

It is unfortunate that anyone would follow a belief system out of fear, -or out of fear of falling into disfavor with that system.
It sincerely is not the code of Christianity on any level, (some will say 'the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom,'
-but that is purely understanding onesself with relation to an infinite and omnipotent being... (which is a bit awe inspiring.)
---What is being left out, both of the pastors message, --as well as with any 'religious,' --or 'judgemental' individual or group, -is that (according to Christianity,) this Creator is ceaselessly looking to pour out his Love on anyone who will believe it, ---regardless of their being 'religous, fundamentalist, orthodox, or good at following or not.' (Again, explaining the fundamental belief of the teaching, not saying that anyone should ascribe to it, --what folks want to belief is completely their business.)

One of the aspects of the current Right Wing Political/Religious movement that I have problems with, is that there is a strong emphasis upon following interpretations of the scriptures, (even if the core aspects of the creator are completely ignored,) ---in effort to escape 'judgement,' by same creator.
(Total missunderstanding of role played by sacrificed son, (known also as Christ.)

It's disturbing in that (again,) the key thing that this belief system is supposed to emphasise, (Grace, Compassion, Love, Understanding, Nurture,) has been swung over into this 'God-Guns-Guts,' 'right by might,' mentality.

What is really funny, (though not Ha-Ha funny,) is, if Bush reads his Bible, --and understands the stuff that talks about the Mid-East in what are called 'the end times,' (by the same camp as this pastor,)
-There will be someone who does come along, sets up a false peace between Israel and her enemies, ---but it doesn't last, (and he's not the sort of individual who the church wants to get to know,,, --nor does he turn out to be a very nice guy in the end...)

All very interesting. I think some of what you write is a bit more contentious than you make it out to be, but that aside I think that you misplace the motivation of "Rev." Franklin's thoughts. Though he may couch his speech in religious terms he, and other's like him are first and foremost (I'm sure he would deny this vehemently) ultra-conservative/fundamentalist, American Exceptionalist, and somewhere after businessman a Christian Pastor. Which is why he can nonchalantly call for the death of many a Christian, Muslim, and Jew because he feels that it would be beneficial to America (security and what not).

You are right though, what he said is nothing new. It may be that there is a more visceral reaction when a Rev. says it, but it is not much different than what our political leaders have been saying, Democrat and Republican alike. In which case patriotism and the belief that your country's people are of more worth than other countries's people is as great a danger as any religious fundamentalism (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Atheist). We're discussing this on The Undercurrent forum as well.

I was raised as a salesman it has been my life to give people just enough information to make em like me or sell them something. (same difference)

I can argue about anything except someones belief. Just as I would never impose my beliefs on others I naturally expect the same of others.

People fight with each other out of fear,ignorance or because they can. I think in the bible it says "violence begats violence".

I know that the hardest thing another person can do is when hit to not instinctivly fight back. Life tells me that when struck I must fight to survive. My moms wisdom has always been "Its takes two to tango!" Course she raised two boys that fought all the time. =0

As a man that can use anger to make a bad situation worse or humor and quick wit to try and salvage it, I strive for the latter yet the first part is almost hardwired into me.

As a grown man I remember my mom telling me about grandpa and how he survived Dachaue. (spelling) Thats a result of politized science known as Eugenics. 20th century politics twisted into psuedo-science.
Anything can be twisted to justify the results you want. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people. Ever. Yes we won the war and to this day are continually trying to keep the genie in the bottle.

I have to agree with Jon Stewart let every single religion share the holy land keep a spot available for the cults and scientoligists. Land will never be as important as the people that inhabit it.

'preciate the comment Downtown Johnny Z...

The above post was initially going to go into the string about the pastor who is calling for a nuke to be dropped on the MidEast.

Though it does go into belief patterns,
-I recognize that such a discussion could raise the hackles of folks on the site...
I threw it together as an explaination of how the beliefs are swaying the politics of the situation, --as well as why they either epitomize the core beliefs, --or how far they have strayed.

What is scarey is: it's relatively to hijack a belief system and use elements of it for one's own goals.
-It used to take a lot of engineering and clever twists of varying parts of the sacred texts to fit something weird in... Now folks don't even bother to deconstruct stuff, fact check, nor really see what the whole picture is, (in full context.)

I'm glad folks are waking up to this sort of thing happening.

If the above post helps them to understand a little how this has played out for the past few thousand years, glad to help.

(What is also pretty sad is: Here in the US there are factions within the faith community that are as zealous and fierce against each other as Israel vs. Palestine (Jews vs. Arabs.) ---fortunately they don't often take up arms...)

Often it's said that religion is the source of all war, --but in truth, even non religious people go to war all the time, ---and then Dr. Jane Goodall found that the Bonobo Chimps go to war, (as to elephants, etc...)

Weird as things have been getting, I do hope that wherever folks go to worship and find some sense of solace, -that they do.

You are a brave brave man. I like to think that god has as many faces as there is life on this planet. Our arrogant conceit constantly demands a label and ownership.

My fervrent hope when I die is that I did everything I needed to do. If there is an afterlife I will be happily surprised. Why spoil what could be the best part of life? Let it go. Live in the now.