In response to Orcaoid
Originally this started as a comment to the what killed Downtown post, the subject line began with the title - No rain but stealing thunder - then the comment grew to be wordy enough for its own place.
Whose voice is that whom is singing the same tune; it's all about transportation. In the early 1930's Fresno's phenomenal growth stopped. As you study the old pictures and maps, Fresno was designed as a big city destination. It was the Ag center of the universe. A private billion dollar Edison hydro-electric station fed LA power in the early 1900's. Fresno was huge. Doorway to three National Parks, half way between LA and SF, close to the mountains and an hour or so away from the ocean, and it is the center of the State.
What happened? It was easy to get around all over town on the streetcars. You could get on a trolley that would take you out to play in the San Joaquin River or stay in town at Zap's water park. Now people spend years without going out to the river, plus there is no access. What happened with that one? Who stole the public access places? The point is: getting around was easy and accessible via the streetcar system.
Now you HAVE TO have a car. But the car doesn't take you places. You have to drive, driving means you have to stop and wait for people. Then wait some more, every light that is red prevents you from getting to wherever it was you were going. Then those other people get in your way and become impatient because you are in their way. They are in a hurry, why is it my duty to get out of their way because I was here first? Again, the car is a problem that causes stress.
Talk about loosing freedom. We are addicted to cars and there are no choices. The bike people are going to tell me they can ride their bikes to the ocean or SF or LA or even Kerman during July when its 110 degrees?
What happened to the vibrant commerce center of downtown Fresno? The convenience of mobility was removed. And there is NOT going to be a resurgence as a commerce center UNTIL that vital component is replaced !!! That vital component is the Ease of Mobility. It is the ability to move around and get to places in a convenient manner. The original design and layout of the City of Fresno worked great, until a bunch of people with weird ideas came along and screwed everything up by blocking off pieces that made it work.
According to the historical society web pages and other websites with historic info, there were no large buildings built Downtown in the 40 year span between the early 1930's and 1964 when the Del Webb and the old wasp nest looking courthouse was assembled… Oh, here's an update: another 40 years has past since those places were built. According to a guy who's kept up on it, the last tenant moved out of the old Bank of Italy building in 1978. There are still a lot of abandoned buildings Downtown.
Again, what is missing? The ability to conveniently get from one place to another. The ease of mobility component HAS to be replaced to make Downtown work. And, no that bus decorated to make it look old does not count as a transit component.
Still looking for interested people, does anyone read this stuff? Daing, hey people: commerce means money wake-up and get to work already. I'm not here to bitch about what is missing but am actively involved in moving this project forward. We need a team of people to make it happen. Does anyone else besides Andy have email?
The Fresno Interurban had a
The Fresno Interurban had a main line out Floradora and McKinley from Fresno Street, which was mainly used for freight and became part of the Santa Fe; it's now operated by the San Joaquin Valley Railroad. I don't think this part was electrified; instead a gas-electric car was used for motive power.
They also had a streetcar line, beginning, I believe, at the Santa Fe crossing on Weldon Avenue at the City College and following Weldon, Blackstone, McKinley, Fresno, Belmont, Valeria, Merced, J, Inyo, L, and Hamilton to 5th. The portion on J was on Fresno Traction trackage; the rest was owned. This line, at least south of Olive, was discontinued in 1918: http://books.google.com/books?id=kRs4AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA298
Fresno Traction extended its Fresno Street line from Belmont to Olive, but the rest was abandoned.
Clues to Fresno's old light rail paths
From the lay of the land, I think there used to be trolley lines leaving downtown headed north on Abby toward Olive and another heading back into downtown south on Blackstone toward Divisidero. I imagine both Blackstone and Abby south of McKinley must have had huge old mansions on either side, while the center median must have been as beautifully landscaped as today's Old Van Ness Boulevard is between McKinley and Shaw.
Just imagine: a boulevard from downtown to the Tower District every bit as lovely as the Christmas Tree Lane on Van Ness!
SIGH!
the powers that be, are working behind the scenes
PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE
Fulton Mall Water Feature
February 13, 2007
Location: Fresno City Hall Council Chambers
2600 Fresno Street, Fresno, CA 93721
Time: 5:00 p.m.
Special Guest: Danno Glanz, Principal, Calthorpe
City of Fresno: Jon Ruiz, Assistant City Manager
Kelly Riddle, Economic Development Coordinator
Jeff Eben, Deputy Mayor
The City of Fresno is exploring the possibility of a dramatic new water feature for the downtown, a ‘linear fountain’ that would help to revitalize the Fulton Mall, connect the City’s important new redevelopment projects, and generally reinvigorate the heart of the community. The planning and design of this downtown water feature will be an exciting challenge and opportunity. The ‘linear fountain’ will need to satisfy a number of important criteria: it will need to be interactive and fun; attractive to kids and families; accommodating of existing conditions on the Fulton Mall; cost effective; and environmentally friendly. It should celebrate the role of water in Fresno’s history and deepen the community’s appreciation of Fresno’s unique culture and setting. But, most of all, a new downtown water feature should bring people back to the center to rediscover the heart of the City! Interested? Come hear about the project and give us your ideas, thoughts, concerns.
Fresno Beach
Fresno wants a river downtown where there is no water. How about rebuilding Fresno Beach where there is water and simply use some of the Measure C "PTIS" (Public Transportation and Infrastructure Study) money that is currently being put to a RFP (Request For Proposal) and investigate building infrasturcture to develop public access to Fresno's Beach on the river.
Wishon to Forkner an on to Fresno Beach
According to the 1979 book 'When Fresno Rode the Rails' the Northern most line used Wishon to Shaw and then Forkner out to the Fresno Beach, that I'll guess is now near the east side of the Fig Garden Golf Club.
the map from the book 'When Fresno Rode the Rails'
The river streetcar.
I am almost 100% sure I found the old grade down the hillside the streetcars took to Fresno Beach. You can get to it if your willing to stand some dirty looks from the people who gated it off and turned it into a private community.
-Aaron
yakland@hotmail.com
Trolleys? Streetcars?
I have to agree with you. I want the streetcars back. Might be inclined to ride one to a Grizzlys game if they put the line back that ran from Tower to down town. Oh does anybody know the difference between the Fresno Interurban Railway. And The Fresno Traction Company? I see them listed as separate companys and have a book that says the Fresno Interurban ran streetcars in the downtown area in the 20s. I have "When Fresno Rode the Rails" All it talks about in the Fresno Traction Company. Did The Fresno Interurban have downtown lines of its own?
repost links
Sorry about that, will redo these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines
http://www.cagenweb.com/quarries/states/ca/quarry_photo/ca-fresno_photos...
http://calarchives4u.com/history/fresno/index.htm
The links arn't automatically linking, let's see if this will work:
National City Lines
Fresno quarries
Fresno history
They should work this time, they work in the test runs here.
links don't work
could you connect these links, they no longer work
National Cities Lines
quarries of Fresno County
Fresno's history
5 questions
Are you asking legitimate or rhetorical questions?
To answer legitimate questions here is some information:
1) Who benefited from changing the growth patterns from the concentration of its commerce center to build single family homes in urban areas? The auto makers, oil companies, tire companies and some real estate developers made money. There was a nationwide conspiracy to kill privately owned transit companies; my studies haven't been able to find any local intentional conspirators.
2) During the first two quarters of 2006 Exxon corporate profits rose nearly 50% above the previous year.
3) Money can buy lots of things, power? Votes? There is also a presents of greed.
4) Chevron, GM, Firestone and Philips Petroleum a National Cities Lines
5) There isn't much informational history of the San Joaquin River, Stewart Ness or the gravel pit or the old dump at the river. There has to be some information about the golf courses along the river or what happened to the park that people use to go to. That area was serviced by a street car, it had to go somewhere; people tell me that their parents used to go on picnics on the river by riding on the streetcar from Downtown. There is no readily available historic information about the San Joaquin River that has presented itself. Do you have any factual information to share?
Here are a couple of informative web sites regarding Fresno's history:
quarries of Fresno County
Fresno's history
Submitted by jpatrick on Sun, 08/27/2006 - 23:12.
ackk, just found this post yesterday, sorry
seems like FF needs more bells & whistles or I have to check more often
anyway, let me ask 5 things
1) who benefited from stunting Fresno's growth back then?
2) if we follow the money, will it show who?
3) what were their reasons; money, power, etc...?
4) are any of these people still around & benefiting from ill-gotten gains?
5) any connection with those involved in stealing the San Joaquin river bottom?
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