Academy Award-winning documentary on the 16th anniversary of the Chernobyl disaster

We don't need a Nuclear Power Plant in Fresno or Near It.

target="_blank">Severe Days In Prypiat

Fresno does not need to be a future target="_blank">abandoned city, thanks to a Nuclear Plant.

'300 - 900 years till Prypiat will be safe to live again.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pripyat,_Ukraine

Well the engineer got banned and all but the harm was done, they might consider some kind of plan to stop this from happening. People could get hurt.

Nuclear power requires an immense amount of water to run i.e., Fresno, approx. 35 million gallons per day. Perhaps this explains the 40+/- secret recently uncovered - cross-connecting and re-routing of Fresno's water lines. Damages to our homes and entire city beyond anything imaginable. Done in-between sales, newcomers do not question anything. City records altered to cover up evidence of major changes (unauthorized road widening, property lines altered, homes removed from foundation and haphazardly put back up, relocation of utility poles, street lights, etc.) at a cost that we, as taxpayers, are also refused an explanation. Using the city's equipment for the heavy construction is how this has gone on right under our noses - no one has ever questioned if it was legitimate.

One of the dangers with nuclear power, I read, is that the water is susceptible to leakage, resulting in a meltdown of the core. That allows radioactive substances to be released into the environment, causing deaths and injuries, making large areas of land uninhabitable. Imagine a nuclear power plant in a city with a water infrastructure that has been dismantled and shoddily clamped back together by unauthorized individuals - no permits or inspections. Not to mention the issue of the utility poles and underground utility/wires being resituated to line back up to all these altered structures - also done without authorization, permits or inspections. Who in their right mind would even consider a nuclear power plant without DEMANDING that these issues be addressed. Name calling is hardly acceptable for something as serious as this.

At this point, I am not sure it is the nuclear energy or the City of Fresno that poses more of a danger. It appears that the city's risk analyst and former appraiser are overriding city plans with their own agenda as this continues, leaving a trail of ID theft, missing people whose names are forged on the deeds to their property (verified by handwriting expert), illegal conversion of assets, and much more. The right to be safe in our own homes was taken long ago. Put nothing past these people. It is not for the welfare or safety of residents that ANY of the above was carried out. I predict we are headed for a disaster of major proportions.

Just a few reasons why I think New Nuclear Power should be apart of our portfolio:

1) Solar Cells are great… That's right Solar Cells are great! But the problem is that most individuals can't afford to retro-fit their homes with solar technology. Initial installation for an average home is somewhere around $19,000 out of pocket and in order to get a financial break-even point for the average household, it takes around 12 years. Not many of us can personally afford to make this investment. http://256.com/solar/
2) Alternative Power is great… That's right alternative energy is great, but a capacity factor is the ratio of actual productivity in a year to theoretical maximum in that year. A well run wind facility will have a 35% capacity factor for wind facilities, 70% for coal plants, and 30% for oil plants. This is much lower than the 90% for nuclear plants. Personally, I don't want electricity only 35% of the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power
3) Wind Power is great… that's right wind power is great, but only in the right locations. Most of California doesn't receive a fast enough wind speed so it isn't suitable for wind power development. http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/maps/chap2/2-01m.html
4) Trees are great…. Wind turbines require around 0.1 square kilometres (0.0386 mi^2) of unobstructed land per megawatt of nameplate capacity. A wind farm that produces the energy equivalent of a conventional 2 GW power plant might have turbines spread out over an area of approximately 200 square kilometres (77.2 mi^2). The portions of California that do have a sufficient wind speed generally overlaps with our beautiful forest. I like the forest we currently have. I don't want to clear any more trees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power#Ecological_footprint
5) Conservation is great! I can personally do my part; I can only hope everyone else is pitching in. Let us find common ground and identify a logical way to save megawatts without impeding anyone's quality of life.

Nuclear Power is a safe, reliable source of power that can be increased to support our energy needs without adding greenhouse gases to our atmosphere, demolishing our forest, and will be available 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

gotta love them thar cyber gremlins.

There are so many facets to what you just wrote, Theramin, that it's kind of like handling a bag of drunk squirrels, each gripping hand grenades.

That religious issue:
Yah.
Well, here's the deal.
In most areas, folks go to church, get all softened up and start thinking more about how to help the poor, the sick, (etc. etc.) and begin to care more about others, ---which sometimes includes the environment.
-Here? I've found the churches to be huge, (particularlly the Evangelical ones,) -but they have this odd penchant for cultivating more this 'I'm into God, because of what's in it for ME,' sort of thing.
-It's what happens when all that Self-Love/Self-Awareness/Self-Esteem stuff grows up for a couple of generations...
---So there is an immed. hurdle in trying to get the rest of the flock (IE the churched,) to see past themselves. (There was a very interesting speaker down at Reedley about a year back who spoke about this phenom.. He may have been out of Fuller, I dunno, but he was a Proff. someplace, and made some very very suitable points.)

-A deviation from the 'what's in it for ME, Jesus?' would be the (now 50 year old) fixation that a lot of Evangelicals have on 'the Rapture happening at any minute.'
-Though I do believe that 'the Rapture,' can and will happen, the immediate sense, (championed by such guys as Hal Lindsay in the late sixties-early seventies, ---then DeHaan with the whole 'Left Behind,' series of books and such over the past Ten Years... I'm seeing more the concern that there are some rather myopic views in the church that will say
'...Well, the environment is nice and all, but if we're going to get yanked out of here soon, why bother?'
(Very VERY Wrong answer...)
-and you are correct, though the Bible talks about 'good stewardship with what God has given us,' ---most believers are too wrapped up in themselves and are too immature in their faith walk to really act responsibly, (let alone, care for others, OR care about the rest of the world on a larger scale.)

Further problems.
Be they Churched, Evangelical, or Not, -the general trend in this country anymore is not towards seriously researching, reading and thinking about stuff.
People have hideously small attention spans, Really don't care to listen to anything that is difficult anymore,
-and tend to:
'just want to know what they have to do to take care of this (test,) so they can get on with what they want to do.'
(I wonder what everybody could blame their ignorance on before we discovered ADD and ADHD... I mean, c'mon, I know it's a real condition, and have worked with a lot of patients who have had it, but far too often? I see it handed out like candy as a diagnosis. It gets used as an excuse for when folks a lot of times are just selfish, and don't like having to focus on stuff that is unpleasant, or is difficult.) ---I'm not criticizing those who really have this condition, I'm criticizing the lazy. There is a BIG difference.

It's a dilemma that has been facing both Mid and Upper level educators, (as well as church leaders,) for quite a while.
-The younger generation, (IE the kids you get, and (now, finally,) the college set, ---ARE starting to want to think more...
-But we really are in a 'soundbite,' world where unless something is catchy and easily understood, (and seen as profitable?) Most folks will just loose interest and move on.
We've become a nation addicted to instant gratification.

This phenom of human reasoning, (or lack of it,) and profound lack of patience, ---as well as the growing inability to really deconstruct and think stuff out is something that any half decent marketing, political, religious, (Any) public handler already knows how to manipulate, just to put food on their table.

---Think of the whole 'vandals cut down trees on Olive,' thread.
-Initially it was seen as a 'nasty act,' there were many elements of it that sounded way off kilter, (Chainsaws that nobody cares about at 6 in the morning... ahuh, right..) NO cops ANYWHERE? Just thugs with chainsaws cutting trees down...?

-A little common sense and detective work, (as well as somebody bothering to report it accurately?)
---we find that they were diseased trees cut down to protect the others, and the town was doing it's job...
----But what do most folks know, and pay attention to? 'Vandals cut down trees in the Tower...'

This means that folks are more prone to seeing something flash and go bang, and then move on to the next thing that flash's and goes bang, --and that's what they are affected by, --Not the particulars of it, or the how's and the why's.

That's the danger point here.
----In a church setting?
So much of what congregations go for anymore is just the 'what do we need to pass the test, tell me something inspirational.' mode.
---That is NOT the same as really chewing on something and making their own decisions.

The same can be said for most large groups, --as well as how NEWS is presented, (It's Info-tainment,,,, It's geared to telling folks the stuff that they WANT to hear, to validate their opinnions and fears, ----it's not dealing with actual facts...)

If a group is able to sell any idea, (such as nuclear power, or anything, for that matter,) ---and they can spin it the right way that huge crossections of the church somehow feel it's the right thing to do? (or worse) Gods Will? (Which suddenly justifies ANY actions taken?)
Than yah... there is a big problem.

And, considering how serious a vein that is in this town, (and I'm speaking as a Christian, and one who's been in leadership in a lot of 'those,' type of churches??? ---It will be nearly unstoppable.)
Your concerns are quite valid.

-On the flip side...
-Anyone opposing such measures, (such as nuclear power,)

Has to take this into consideration.

-There has to be a well presented, organized, and well informed effort ----as well as credible study and facts distritubed to the general public in a sane and non-hysterical manner,
-so that folks will want to think more, understand, and make their decisions based upon fact.

-I hate to say it, but a lot of the groups I've been with over the decades have shot themselves in the foot, --simply because they come across too fanatical, too unorthodox, and just freak folks out.

-The goal in all of this is to convey solid facts in a manner that is timely, ---and in a method where people will respect how it's being presented, and not be put off by the presentation.
-We both see the point of protesting and hollering about stuff.
--But the bigger point is, most folks look at protesters as being volatile, and a little crazy,
-especially in such a conservative area as this.
So the presentation of the facts about why this is a bad thing has to be done in a manner that will be easily understood, -and then conveyed in a manner that respects those who you are trying to reach.

IF the idea of Nukes are being floated, than you can bet that something is already in the works and is moving...
That's NOT just an honest openning for a debate on the issue.
There is nothing theoretical and able to be 'tabled,' about this, that's not how it works in business or in government.

This is a freighttrain headed this way, with tracks layed.

The response and handling of this has to be done in an extremely effective and 'wise use of effort,' manner.

What is sad, is, it may result in merely a type of 'compromise.'
We don't want compromise here, we want 'NO.'

So, on the msn home page there's this article about evangelicals and scientists meeting and finding common ground.
here's the link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16671785/site/newsweek/?GT1=8921
---and in the article, someone representing the scientists says:
"I think the country is really poised to make some major changes in our policies with regard to energy, for example greenhouse-gas emissions."
I really hope that the evangelicals are concerned about what the Bible says about being a good steward of God's creation and that they want to make an effort to take good care of the environment rather than to abuse it.
But my Warning Light blinks hard on this one and hopes that these
conservative religious folk don't become the tool of the rich and powerful (the way I believe they have been in electoral politics) and that the Religious Right doesn't line up FOR nuclear power and pretend they are being all 'environmentally concious' because of it.

disclosures:
Yes, my posts on this thread are full of my own fears(well-earned I think) and prejudices.

re: the disappearance of the 'pro'nuclear power statement that prompted my own and OotVoid's response, it could be that they deleted it just seconds before we hit 'send' on our responses.
But why? Accident? With the lack of play this is getting in local media (I heard one lengthy discussion of it on KFCF and saw the initial article about Smittcamp and some others forming a partnership in order to build a power plant--but that's it)
-----I wonder if the Powers That Wish To Make a Killing on This Deal
would rather not stir up the hornets nest at this time? Or maybe I'm just really paranoid about this particular subject.....
---which is the perfect seque into my next comment:

oh you clever germans... you don't miss a thing.
Next thing you're going to tell me that there's actually an instrument that is played, but never touched...

Now that you mentioned it,
-my response was to the same message you were referring to.

(of note I remember some of the comments citing how there have been no injuries because of nuclear power in the US, (which is total horseshit... most of the reactors (which were developed quasi/military (then,) institutional/educational) had significant injury in their earlier modes, and not a few lost lives among the developing/managing staff...
-but why confuse an obvious advertisement for nukes -with facts...?

Yeah, they pulled it,
Whoever 'they are.'

What is strange,
once you write a comment 'to,' someone's post, it locks in their post that you were referring to. (This one just locked in yours.)

-It also removes the possibility of 'editing,' the post that you're writing the comment to, (you probably cannot edit the post I'm addressing, now that I've written to it.)

-and, even if you can edit a comment, (such as when nobody responds to it,) you cannot edit it down and remove it entirely.
There will always be at least a heading for the comment, and (sometimes,) just the repeat of the heading.
(This is how something goes from being huge, and or all 'one thing,' ---to simply going down to 'have a nice day,' ----when the author decides to recind everything.)

You can completely 'clear,' a series of comments, (such as when it's in 'Forum,' mode, and 'cut the whole string,'
-the entire chain of comments will dissappear...
(you can then repost the initial message, but with a clean slate and no remarks from anyone.

Whoever it was who wrote all those wunnerful things about nukes,
-decided to remove them.

Now if only the effort to remove the idea of nukes from the area was as simple.

I wrote my "say no to nuclear power" message in response to one that WAS just above it that said something like "say YES to nuclear power"---there's was a medium-long post--posted this evening or afternoon.....and then it disappeared? weird. ???

Not only did I work with a major supplier to such as chem and nuke reactors, but I'm from an area that has been ravaged by 'super technologies,' that have gone afoul.

Thanks to the bamboozling of my ancestors, my home states of NY, NJ, and Pa. will be forever polluted not only with stuff that causes cancer and asbestosis, but lasts in the ground and water for generations.

They are still trying to figure out what to do with the PCB's all along the Hudson, and South Jersey has some of the highest cancer rates in the nation thanks to some rather unscrupulous chem plants that kept our parents employed, ----while killing off our classmates.
---That's just chem shop's folks.
I was raised in a toxic waste site, and thought that was bad, until I started getting involved with the nukes.

1. In my immed. region were the spectres of TMI (mentioned,) Forked River, and Indian Point, (among others,) that were always suffering from (not only,) the problems of technical difficulties that were constantly releasing stuff into the atmosphere, (which is bad enough.)

2. But were proving to be a real problem in that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could seemingly break into them and compromise them to the point of turning them into weapons on millions of surrounding community members.
(We had this guy who was in security over at Indian Point, who would regularly trounce the varying measures at that Nuke, just to show it's many flaws, and how naked folks really were on this... Keep in mind, Indian Point is only twenty minutes up the river from the World Trade Center.)
It was both terrifying and laughable.

The truth of the matter is, even if there were no threat of a nuke being turned around as a weapon, there is no technology yet that can make nukes error proof,
-and considering the consequences?, error proof is what you need. (Period, end of story, there IS NO acceptable argument to this.)

The concerns of property values going down is quite correct.
Usually Nukes are put up in areas where there are low property values to begin with, ----or, if they were there for quite a while, -they are viewed with anxiety and nobody really wants to be all that close to them.

Due to the density of populations around the sites, you occasionally get a report on 'what would happen in the event of,' --and it spells out how a perfect world scenario of evacuating people in time, would fall far short of anything practical.

If you are living near a nuke, (or any kind of chem. reactor, for that matter,) you are essentially living on borrowed time, and are hedging your bets that whenever happens DOES happen
-will involve as few people as possible, and be 'least lethal.'
Anybody who speaks of nukes as a power source, (or for weapons mfg. or storage,) who does not explain it to you in those terms, is simply trying to sell you something.

There is only one safe scenario by which nuclear power can be conducted near any people, wildlife, or any ecosystem that anyone cares about: Don't work with it at all.

I would advise, considering how in love this place is with the sun, going heavily solar,
-then pursuing hydro.

Both of these, though not perfect either, are safer, easier to control in the long run, and, should something go wrong, -are easier to manage, with much lesser loss of life.

Re: Protests and Activism?
Okay, if that floats your boat, but I'd not screw around with anything that would waste time and energy.
'No Nukes,' was thirty years ago, and cannot be considered as a main line defence against this sort of thing.
If anyone is 'floating out,' ideas of a nuke going in, that means that there are already plans in the works.
That means Fresno is looking at stopping something that has already been quietly built, is moving, and is probably well constructed (as an effort.)
-There is no such thing as 'maybe this might happen.' -There is only public conditioning and varying accpetance campaigns to convince folks that it's okay, (when it's already started.)

I'd find the legislatures that have any say in this, and make it very clear that you don't want it, if you don't.
I'd find the companies that are pushing for it, and simply run them out of town.
I'd do my homework, and actually talk to the surroundin communities around Indian Point NY, (such as White Plains, Tarrytown, etc. etc.) and the regions around Forked River, (NJ)

-And I'd also get in touch with such folks in the Capital Region of NY (Albany,) such as the folks of radio station manager WAMC Albany, the varying science departments of SUNY Albany, Purchase, (etc.) to see who they have up there who was able to cut through all the red tape and find out what was the best route to take with such already hazard sites as the Hudson (PCB contamination,) -as well as Love Canal, and other BrownSites.
New York has tried to be really on top of this, and should be consulted with.

NJ and Pa. really aren't, and the health situations, (as well as property situations,) reflect it.

The whole idea of 'one end of town being affected vs. another.'
Shows a severe lack of understanding of how radioactivity and nuclear problems take place.
(Anti-, your sim game depicting nukes is almost a quarter inch in tech. past 'duck and cover,' -sorry.)

If anything happens miles north of here, HERE is just as affected as anywhere -in part because the atmosphere hardly ever changes, and the air just sits...
(Our only fighting chance back east was that, if something really went wrong, -maybe it would be on an ice cold day, and the wind would pull it over a remote area, then out to sea
-even then, there would still be significant loss of life in the immed area.
-If there is anything built anywhere near Fresno?,
ALL of Fresno is 'the immed. area.'
-there is no wind washing out the environment, either.
Understand what I'm saying?
-build it below Belmont? -All Fresno has an issue.
-build it in Easton -All Fresno has an issue.
-build it in Kingsburg, -All Fresno has an issue.
-build it in freakin' Bakersfield -(fill in your name here.)

The problems with radioactive contamination are not as simple as chem spills (which are bad enough,) -once this stuff forms a cloud, and decides to travel? It goes where it wants, and is not stopped.
I'm sort of shocked that anybody with half a brain,
-who understands why car pollution is bad, and doesn't go away?
-and anyone who understands why they are OUTLAWING wood fireplaces around here as well?
-would have the nerve to suggest a nuke.

Maybe the only real saftey factor, (with Fresno?,) would be, that if something goes wrong, ONLY the San Joaquin valley would be affected.
-IN other words?
Congrats Fresno: we are being selected because we are isolated from other 'higher valued,' properties and are being seen as expendible,
-if the nuke takes a dump, only (us,) will be affected, for the most part, and not only are we toast, (even if we survive and move away,) but the ground is toast for a long time too.

That's one beauty contest we just don't want to enter.
We're cute because we are a CONTAINER.
Get it?
They like us for all the wrong reasons.

Fresno, you're a pretty farm girl, and you're groing up fast.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's part of your charm.

Don't let these assholes take advantage of you, and talk you into something you will only regret.
This is NOT Love.
Whoever is suggesting this stuff does not care one bit.
(..god, I feel like I'm talking to my niece over here....)

I was raised in this stuff, I'll be lucky if I make it to my sixties without cancer...
back home? people who stayed in the areas I was raised in are already having problems, -and their kids are having problems too.

-Is that what you want, and worse?

Trust me, you don't want this.

Consider Kern County (definately not considered the Hippy County of California). They are working towards WIND power.

Europe----long pointed to as a place becoming more contented with Nuclear power is actually NOT. It is also moving more towards wind power----Travel over there and notice those GARGANTUAN windmills----make ours at the Altamont Pass look like tadpoles. Germany is phasing OUT their nuclear plants.

MONEY-----check the figures on the building of the proposed Fresno Nuke Plant---and then the amount of kilowatts projected to be produced. The wind power being worked towards in Kern County will produce MORE power at less cost per watt.

With Solar Power moving more and more towards the main stream in home production (lots of developers are offering it as optional and even STANDARD in new homes), and wind power seeming to be moving towards a more popular version of large-scale electricity productin--WHY make Fresburg the victim of Backwards Looking Technology?

AND----a broken windmill will NOT endager the entire future of the Valley----How well are your grapes gonna grow when the soil is irradiated for a thousand years?

Just a few reasons why I like New Nuclear Power:

1) Nuclear Power Plants produce significantly less CO2 then fossil fuel power plants, but also less than wind and hydro power plants. If you do a complete analysis of CO2 production including mining, fuel processing, construction, and normal operation; CO2 production per GWe of electricity for a nuclear power plant is half of that produced by solar power. http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/pdf/fdm1181.pdf

2) Continuous Oversight. The NRC houses nuclear power plant experts at each and every nuclear power plant. The NRC also continuously reviews engineering, training, operations, maintenance, and management at each of these operating facilities. The NRC also reviews all new designs and changes to the nuclear fleet prior to approving the use in any operating nuclear facility.

3) Internal Oversight. Each nuclear power plant employees a department of individuals to provide oversight of their home facilities. The Quality Assurance personnel sole responsibility is to review work and decisions made by their peers.

4) Industry Oversight. The nuclear power industry has developed an organization called Institute of Nuclear Power Operators (INPO), where high potential candidates from each nuclear facility spend rotations working for INPO. During these rotations they provide expertise for plant questions and complete comprehensive plant evaluations where they document areas of improvement on themselves.

5) Safety. No one has died from a nuclear related accident at a power plant in the USA. That's right, no one died because of Three Mile Island. Pennsylvania continued to study the residents that surrounded the TMI plant for 20 years to determine if an increase in mortality rate could be observed and it was determined that there was no significant correlation between the TMI accident and mortality rate. http://www.ehponline.org/members/2000/108p545-552talbott/talbott-full.ht...

6) Expectation of Perfection. The multiple layers of oversight works. In one of the most well known recent incidents at a nuclear power plant; the NRC levied a $5.4Million dollar fine as well as banned the engineer who provided false documentation of inspections. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7589842/ When tritium leaks became a concern in 2005, the industry adopted tougher guidelines even though EPA standards on tritium levels in ground water was never broken. http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/05/09/nuclear...

7) Jobs — Building new nuclear power plants will create thousands of construction jobs, and depending on the design selection; hundreds of well paying full time jobs. These jobs will attract well educated, highly paid individuals to maintain the facility and to pay taxes in the local area.
8) Energy Independence. Uranium can come from many different sources including Canada, the USA, Russia, and Australian mines. None of which are located in the middle east.

If they build a plant will that lower the value of homes in fresno. Do we the people get to vote on the matter????

This whole thing of nuking fresno county is so amazingly messed up i do not know where to start, except to say, it will give the nascent activist desires of my just-starting-out daughter some pinpoint direction.

I want Fresno to be known for it's PROgressive not its REgressive ideas. Come on FresnoPowerBrokers: impress me you ***kers.
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