Fresno Famous

nearly a week later... the update...

strangely enough?
There is none.
I considered the string dead...
-Then it's posted in the flyer for a second week in a row.

I have no interest in restating the concerns I wrote in the previous posts, (they were long enough.)

The subject, however?
-How does FresPac take such a harsh view on any same sex relationships,
(as well as pre-marital, (not sure what the whole definition would be there...) sex...

When it's sending out teams on local levels,
training counsellors,
and has regularly sent out people to other countries to 'help them with their disputes, (Peacemakers.)
This is quite the contradiction.

-Note:
If this was a conservative Christian / Evangelical / Missionary college, sadly, I would not expect them to have any other view.
The statement in the student handbook IS standard boilerplate/warning for most Christian Colleges.

The ramifications of breaking those rules are pretty universal as well.

Removing the statement would be seen by major backers of the Church/School as 'going liberal,' and 'endorsing same sex anything.'
-So I wouldn't stay up too late waiting for an insert page that has the revised statement:

'...We at Fresno Pacific encourage each student, faculty, and staff member to be accountable to their Creator with regards to their personal conduct, and relationships, and would expect that they conduct themselves in relationships, (both interpersonal, with other members of our and other schools, and with the greater community,) that are discreet, mature, healthy, and nurturing, as would be found to be exemplified in the scriptures, as well as with the spirit and disposition shown by the Creator, Christ, and the Holy Spirit...'

...gee, do you think somebody could be gay, straight, going with someone, or whatever read something like the above and NOT understand how they are supposed to behave when representing FresPac in the 'no?

What I find galling, is the emphasis that I've seen/heard from this same org. (specifically Peacemakers,) that are quite serious about NOT Evangelizing,
NOT being 'missionary,'
-and are quite accepting of the extremely varying views of so many different cultures, countries, religions, (etc. etc.)
-yet will take a negative stance on this issue, and make it plain that it is not tolerated among their own students, (no word on the faculty.)

---What was the official response to the peacemakers (from the other side,) who were sent to here? (The 'peacemakers' in this case: the folks on the bus tour.)

Members of this college, as well as local worship groups, are not just 'passive sojourners who are quiet about everything.'

-A number of them are activist in their practice, are quite vocal against the war, political views, heck... even a transmission tower being placed where there is an (otherwise,) pretty view.
These are not shy people and often can be found on the covers of local alt. magazines.

-But the difference here is?
Those subjects, (though they are serious, and need to be discussed, visited, protested, (whatever,)
-are so much larger,
so less personal,
and involve dealing with 'others.' (IE: the president, the power companies, the local govt. other political regimes, etc. etc.)
---all heavy beasts to take on.

--But THIS comes from within the rib-cage.

I don't personally expect rave results from the group approaching the college,
-nor this string,,,

(Christian Conservatives are pretty hard-set in their views of right and wrong,
I know
I was raised one, and was considering the pastorate for three separate denoms that are this way.)

I would just hope that the issue,
(now having been included in the flyer a second time,) would be discussed, addressed, or followed up on.

Obviously this is an issue that (somebody,) wants to see addressed.

This is not the 'Focus on the Family,' Message board, nor is it a site where comments about faith are unheard of.

Not the school, apparently,
nor my otherwise vocal fellow activism oriented believers, have anything to say,
other than the above answers (that really just lead to more questions when you understand what is being said.)

What is the message here?

'Jesus loves you, He loves everybody, we want to educate you in His Love, Forgiveness, Graces,
-as well as how to make a difference in the world, REALLY, and how to be strong in your faith, stand up for your beliefs,
-In fact, stand up and trust God enough to allow others to grow in their beliefs,(religions etc,)
and NOT try to 'convert them,'
(remember folks, we don't prostletyze...)
We have all these areas and majors, (even up to the Graduate levels.) You will have to pay money to study here, yes, -but you'll be receiving such a great and rewarding experience in sharing the hope of Christ with others..."

-that is unless you're gay or lesbian, (at all,)
-or physically 'do _______' with another heterosexual that isn't married already.'

Nobody is stepping up to the plate on this.

um, okay, yeah...

My concern is not with the foundations of the Anabaptist movement and such, (though I appreciate the clarity of the denom's foundations...)

The key thing that I'm wrestling with is that you have a Major University, (in terms of dealing with world issues,)

-With leaders and practices in this movement that bend over backwards to be understanding and supportive of folks who have beliefs that are totally conflicting with their (own,) beliefs,

-(IE: when dealing with someone who is Hindu, Islamic, Hebrew, Athiest, Buddhist, Shinto, ---etc. etc.)
(...I've heard these folks speak first hand several times.)

Will show extreme sensitivity and 'understanding,' given to such, people groups,

-Who can have practices or a history that include being extremely harsh (or sometimes supportive,) of GLBT,
-Who also can be notorius in the news on such things as genocide, racial sexual and child exploitation, womens issues, (such concerns as female genital mutilation, the burning of women, etc...)
-let alone working with AIDs populations care or others who have 'gender-role, sexual practices,' (some which defy logic.)

-I mean, 'Peacemaking,' and the Mennonites are involved in stuff on a global scale and are 'all about human rights,' (which I applaud, and found quite humbling.)
(I found the adherance and respect for all these other beliefs to be unsettling at times, (because of the conflict,) but I understood why it was being done.)

What really gets me is, 'Peacemakers' are a completely NON-Evangelical outfit, and are not 'missionary,' in any of their practices,
(they are not looking to 'spread the gospel,' 'further the kingdom,' and convert anyone in any situation over to Christianity...
-They are TOTALLY about respecting and maintaining the beliefs, heritage, religions, and customs of those they are working with. (This is one of the things that makes them controversial in some folks eyes, ---that there is such an emphasis on NOT 'affecting/infecting' others with 'Christianity.')
-okay-fine.

-Yet when it comes to one of their own college kids being gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgendered,
---or even 'sexually involved' prior to marriage,
(I'm leaving out 'extra-marital,' for the sake of reason, here.)

(What does that ('pre-marital sex',) mean, exactly?
Are we talking 'self-abuse,' while thinking of your fiance' (or someone from world-civ?
-1st, 2nd, 3rd base here, or going all the way???)

-a student is held in violation (depending on the disciplinary codes of the school, is likely to be expelled, right?)

-On a basic level, any of this (based upon the statement in the handbook,) presents:
-'heavy petting (if you're straight,) as borderline,
but
-'hugging a little too long,' if you're gay as being in violation...

-Even identifying yourself as 'GLBT' (and not DOING anything with anybody,) is defined as 'contrary,' to the core ethos and beliefs of the denom/school.

This is Okay with those attending the school, those running it, those funding it, and 'Peacemakers?'

You mean to tell me nobody has thrown down a flag about this before?

i'm not a history expert,

i'm not a history expert, but it's my understanding that the mennonite brethren are an offshoot of the mennonites, founded by menno simmons as a part of the anabaptist movement.

i think the bee article accurately represented the college's official (and generally enforced) position on sexuality. as for the harmony of this issue w/that of peacemaking, well, they would say that their position is explicitly in line with the teaching and ministry of Jesus. as you know, there are groups on all sides of these issue that would disagree with the the schools interpretation of scripture on both peacemaking and homosexuality.

so, being that the school has said stated policy, it was news to me when someone else posted about a club on campus.

Okay... so let me get this straight, (no pun in tended.)

(I've edited this a bit since it's orig. post...)

'...Fresno Pacific is Mennonite Brethren, (versus 'Plain Mennonite,' as found in PA.)
...okay, that explains a few things.

-They're also different from Peace Church (Friends,) aka Quakers?

Okay, that tells me something.

Most of the Mennonites I knew were from either PA, NJ, Ohio or Kansas.
They had strong German Roots.
I don't think any of them were Mennonite Brethren.

-Within those ranks there were everything from 'Black Bumper,' (plain) Mennonites (which ranged from being extremely similar to Amish, ---on up to semi-traditional Mennonite (but appeared regular to outsiders) Mennonite.

-They were all also very conservative in comparrison to regular society.

-Note: There also was a strong contingency of Charasmatic Mennonites.
(which was pretty wild, considering how quite the services in Mennonite Churches usually are.)

---All of these were adamant about non-violence and all were C.O.'s
(like ALL...
-but I'm talking East Coast and Mid-West 'Mennonite,'

-aparently with the West Coast 'Mennonite Brethren,' there are times when it's permissable to take a life, (again, huge difference than back east.)

Friends-(Quakers) were actually nothing like the Mennonites or Brethren back east, (nor like Plymouth Brethren, (my old sect.)
--other than that there was no 'established,' liturgy, (very 'low church,')
-and Quakers could discuss pretty much anything (socio-political that was on their heart, and it'd qualify as a religious service.)

The Quakers I knew in Pa, (most were in the Phila. region,) were more like Universalist Unitarians, but 'colonial,'(lots of 'historic,' Quakers...)
-also not always C.O.'s (one of them I knew actually was into developing weaponry for the govt.)

(Most 'Brethren' are quite pared down, tend to be fundamentalist, often use only the King James Version of the Bible, the NASV, sometimes the RSV, and, for a while the NIV.... and a hymnbook, some do not allow musical instruments, and a lot are seperatist.)

Regardless???

If the California group (Fresno, and surrounding areas,) are a form of
'the Brethren,' or
'Church of the Brethren,'
(or 'Grace,' 'Cox,''Plymouth,' (etc.) Brethren, (these also are based out of England, whereas Mennonite and Amish were German Based.)

I totally understand the concerns of any GLBT group.

I was initially raised Plymouth Brethren, and the group is extremely fundamental, can still practice 'closed,' communion or worship gatherings,
-they are also quite vehement regarding (non) same sex relationships (at all,)
-(also) are very defined in their gender roles and the heirarchy within the church being completely held by men...
(Men being anything sporting a pair of testicles and a voice getting deeper... The women did not address the congregation (at all,) in Plymouth Brethren circles, and still don't.)

-These groups (Plymouth Brethren,) were not C.O.'s per se, either. But they were not Mennonite.

Where 'Mennonite Brethren,' fit into all that? I have no idea.

My concern would still be:

-How is it that a college (FresPac)

-who has an entire major (both undergrad and grad?) based upon 'peacemaking,' (and recognition of the rights of all, (per se,) Taking a stance on both intimate and world issues, and NOT accepting GLBT?

I know people involved with the major, have talked to folks and professors from the school, and know people who have gone out as peacemakers from the area.
I was seriously considering taking 'peacemaker,' courses at the school.

"...The Fresno Pacific student handbook reads: "Students are encouraged to build balanced, healthy, Christ-centered relationships. The university is opposed to homosexual, premarital and extramarital sexual relations..."

This quote is from the (Jarah) posted article that quotes the Bee.. The Bee is quoting the student handbook.

This statement is standard boilerplate for Christian Colleges. (Nearly all have this type of statement, nearly all have an area, prior to the student being accepted, (often the student has to write out a 'statement of faith,') ---and signs off that the student will not engage in any activity while attending the school.

I have seen this include all of some of the following.
-No consumption of alch.
-no drug use, (with exception of prescription drugs.)
-No dancing
-No movies
-No attending of any clubs
-No premarital or extramarital sexual relationships
-No promiscuous behavior, foul language, nor playing of music or watching movies that depicts such
-No same sex relationships
-(often) there is a curfew for dorms and off residence housing

Violation of the above rules results in (usually,) the following:
-counselling
-if the student is repentant, counselling may allow the student to remain in school.
-Sometimes the 'couselling,' (depending upon the denominational stance,) includes what can only be described as exorcism of demonic entities. (NOTE: with some churches Homosexuality, Promiscuous behavior, Illicet Drug use, (etc.) is equated with demonic manifestation.) -This is more pronounced with Charasmatic and Penticostal denoms.
-Depending upon the severity of the behaviors, a student can be dismissed from the college (with no refund,)
-Depending upon the behaviors, not only are the parents of the student informed of the situation, but the church leaders that also undersigned the student's attending are informed.
-Depending upon the (repentance or non-repentance,) of the person, they can find themselves also placed 'under discipline,' or 'shunned,' by their home worship body (church,) or the denom overall.

(Don't know about the Mennonites out here, but back east, it is possible (not just with Mennonites, but other conservative churches,) to be shunned and excluded from all religious gathering and activity, (sometimes even living with one's family,) ---based upon a persons behavior.
-This can be found in both High and Low churches, as well as various sects, even 'alternate,' denoms (such as LDS,) etc.

My reason for listing all of this?

The boilerplate statement in the student handbook, (which again, is pretty standard for any Christian School,) can (at the very least,) result in a person being dismissed from school, -or put under a 'discipline,' situation.
---The methods use by the governing body, (be they the business of the school, (bursar-dean etc.) or the religious body (chaplain-dean) could have devestating impacts on the individuals that are considered 'in violation,' of these rules, (for obvious reasons.)
I've seen it lead to suicide.

So, when FRES-PAC is approached about their policy.
and FRES-PAC is also 'all about Peacemaking?'

(and I happen to know folks who went to the school who are gay, and they were not supported nor welcomed.)

I'm a bit concerned about the dual stance.

Whether you have Brethren-Mennonite over here that will pull the trigger in time of war, (or) Mennonite back east who are 'horse-and buggy,' is an interesting comparrison...
The one issue that really cannot be refuted is that 'Brethren,' 'Mennonite,' or 'Brethren-Mennonite,' take their behavioral codes seriously (as denoms,) and take them seriously as an educational institution.

Further Note:
-To my understanding, NONE of these other colleges (be they grad or undergrad,) make any bones about NOT supporting GLBT.
They are from very Strict Stances, and are not promoted as being 'Accepting,' 'Open and Accepting,' 'Open and Affirming,' and certainly do not have billed programs that regarding 'Peacemaking' (be it on a small or International scale.)
---That would be the most obvious flag in my opinion.

If you go to a conservative college or seminary:
-The best that you will get from them is '...we love the sinner, hate the sin...'
...in otherwords, if you are non-practicing and do not 'endorse, support, nor promote' homosexuality in any form, (and for godssakes don't 'act gay,') the issue is not usually pursued.

Considering some of the other details:
Some colleges (literally,) will issue a signed a waiver for such things as dancing or attending a club (if for missionary circumstances or attending a religious event such as wedding.)

(OR)

-take the attitude of 'when semester is off, and you are off the property of the school, you are not violating the by-laws as you are techinically not on the grounds that you signed the contract about.'

(It gets really legalistic to say the least, but I've seen it played that way.)

Traditionally:
(In general church circles)
-You usually find male homosexuals more easily targeted than females, (most female relationships were quieter and it was more accepted that women could be closer anyway,(the quieter nature of the relationship was considered less suspicious.. they were just 'roommates.')

-IF somebody was gay, they were prayed for and such,
-but so long as hey were not 'active,' they were considered to be in a type of 'remission,' ---with longer periods of non-active considered as 'healed,' (This meant celibacey.)

-as soon as somebody declared that they were 'partnered,' with anyone, all bets were off and they were often put out of the church, usually completely expelled from the school, (again, no refund of tuition.)

---Again, however these scenarios were involving churches and institutions that made no beef about being 'against,' certain social behaviors and did not bill themselves as 'accepting.'
(Some of them have gotten as large and as powerful as they are BECAUSE they are so exclusive and 'separate from the world.')

For FRES-PAC, all about equal rights and 'Peacemaking' the dual stance is quite significant and unfortunate.

Until this is resolved?
It simply teaches the practitioners of this faith to live a double standard (never a good thing,) and really portrays the college (because of it's 'Peacemaker status,' as really hypocritical.)

-Again, some of the most vocal folks I know in this area are quite passionate about ending the war, caring for the poor and sick, and such, (and even send teams to other countries to try and end disputes and end hostage situations...)

Nobody is saying anything about their rejection of GLBT.
(which is not simply an acronym... it's PEOPLE who happen to be gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or trans-gendered...)

well...

"I have found Mennonites overall to be quite firm in their beliefs,
-(you will NOT find one that is NOT a conciencious objector."

OotV, gotta disagree w/you on this one, albeit a small disagreement. as a graduate of the school, and an current employee, i've had plenty o' discussions regarding the topic of peace. and although i grew up in a peace church (friends), i knew plenty of MB's there that did not believe in nonviolence, whose churches did not stress it. i even had a conversation w/a faculty @ one point who talked about how it was 50/50 amongst his mennonite friends going to vietnam. some served as c.o.'s, others went an actively fought. others stayed home.

as for a lgbt group on campus, that must have happened since i graduated (99), although, i would suspect that some of my very progressive friends (some employess, some more recent grads) would be keen to point such a group out, and i've never heard about it. not saying there isn't one, just that i haven't heard of it. but, i'm not in the loop in all things fpu, just some.

*let me throw in a disclaimer as well. fpu is a mennonite brethren university. although there are deep roots, shared philosophies, and so on, it does differentiate in some areas from mennonite as a denom. heck, one of my best friends is mennonite from pa., and most of his family is plain mennoninte. that's a whole lot different from the mb churches in fresno.

...I'm a little confused here...

First off:
I realise that this is a highly sensitive issue.

I do appreciate the posting, as well as the coverage of the touring bus that is trying to bring the issue of gay Christians to some of the more conservative (IE: anti-gay) colleges.

Disclaimer:
I happen to be a Christian,(according to the 'Born Again,' terminology: 31 years.)
I happen to also be Straight.
I also have attended a Christian college, as well as Christian schools, and have been a part of church leadership in denoms that are fundamentally opposed to same-sex relationships. (I no longer am a part of these denoms.)

My present denom (Episcopal,) actually has had almost it's entire diocese 'pull out,' of the greater convention (Episcopal USA) --and join up with a more conservative 'Anglican,' identification over these two issues:
-Women in leadership
-Same Sex unions, Same sex orientation of leaders (specifically V. Gene Robinson,)
---though there's been gay leaders in the church (in general,) since, well, probably people have existed.

(that last statement kind of shows my true colors on the issue, don't it?)

My question would be:
-What IS the Mennonite stance?

I say this not as any attack on the Mennonite Church at all.
(And I realize that there is a wide spectrum of 'Mennonite,' believers across the country and worldwide, (I've had many friends who are Mennonites over the years, and used to serve as a missionary with a Mennonite Childrens home back East.)

I'm just confused by such comments as:
'Mennonite institution governed by the churches official position...'

This is a small town.
I know folks who attended FresPac who were same sex oriented and did not feel accepted at all.

I can personally attest that the 'progressive,' Christian college that I was attending (up until early 2002,) back east (who has a sister college, North of here,)
-also has a '...governed by the churches official position...' stance, and that I had to personally be a part of essentially rescuing to young men who were 'thought to be gay,' from living in a broken down car during Mid-Winter,
(if they were found by the campus police, they would have been arrested for trespassing.)
They were expelled by the college for being 'in a relationship that was not in accordance to the by-laws of the college.'
(This stance was also taken with hetero couples that were found to be sexually involed, as well as individuals who were involved in substance or alch. abuse, (or smoking,) -who did not 'repent,' of this.)

---This is again, a progressive Christian College and not considered a 'conservative,' one.
(The conservative ones tend to have the same by-laws and actions taken.)

--I also left the school and the denom shortly afterwards for these stances and others that I found disharmonious with the fundamentals of the faith, (the epitomy: Love.)

So, I'm wondering what the Mennonite stance is on this.

I have found Mennonites overall to be quite firm in their beliefs,
-(you will NOT find one that is NOT a conciencious objector.
-(you will NOT find one that is NOT extremely into serving others (in fact, they have an ethos and preparedness to serve with disasters that rivals and exceeds the RedCross and FEMA.)

(-FRES PAC also has specific courses and degrees that train people up into the specialties of arbitration and dispute settling that have ranged from simple church and familial issues,
-all the way on up to International War Zones,
(I know people who from this area have been a part of this.)

-I've also heard from several faculty and attending persons of FresPac (both the cited program and others,) at local 'Peace Groups,' talk about their convictions, the college's, and the denoms.
-None of them were particularly shy.

-In fact: some of these groups are VERY Mennonite, and take part in regular protests and have done so for years.

So, both on:
-official stances
-and in personal dealings?

I don't find Mennonites waffling much on the most basic of things,
-and have heard about 'acceptance,' as being such a key to the faith, and a trademark of the denom in general and local worship groups.

I'm also trying to figure out:
-How does a college have a GLBT 'group,' that is 'not recognized,'
(when the very status of GLBT -is not 'not officially endorsed.'

-your statement of some churches being 'kicked out of,' the convention reflects that somebody with the authority to 'kick out,'
a worship body does not approve of 'GLBT,' identification.

Though I'd not want to see anyone go through the schism that is currently happening in the Episcopal/Anglican circles, I would hope that a (Major) Educational Facility for a (Major) Denom that has such World Impact has some discernable ethos and stance in place... (again, Mennonites can be quiet, but I've not known them to be shy...)

The embroilment of the Anglican/Episcopal thing (especially here in Fresno,) is all about the orthodoxy and High-Church (on middle-management levels,) as compared to the OVERALL Denom's stance (which is pro GLBT.)

Mostly it's some local level Bishops and (as well as some International Bishops,) playing politics.

I wasn't aware of Mennonites being encomboured with such structure.

So, before I consider further taking courses on 'peacemaking,'
(as the genre in the curriculum is known,)

What is FresPac's stance on the issue?
What is 'the Mennonite,' stance on the issue?

Gays on campus

As a Mennonite Institution, Fresno Pacific recognizes the positions of the church as a whole. As one who attended a Mennonite college, there was an LGBT group on campus, recognized by the college, students and faculty, but not in an official capacity as the college is a Mennonite institution governed by the church's official position.

Likewise, there are churches within the Mennonite denomination, some have been kicked out of the denomination, others have been allowed to stay, that welcome homosexual members, practicing or not. Many in leadership in the Mennonite denominations support homosexuality, many do not. Like most religions, Mennonites have struggled with the incredibly divisive issue of homosexuality for years.

So while FPU's official stance must fall in line with that of the denomination to which it belongs, the faculty, and many in the administration that I know are very supportive of their homosexual brothers and sisters and believe that Jesus would've welcomed them into the church. Perhaps no more ideal than "civil unions" but it's a start.