Downtown Fresno, CA

The debates, plans, complaints, hopes, goals continue. Once a vital and impressive area, Fresno's downtown never recovered from the massive "remodeling" back in the 60s. Most likely because the goal behind that venture may not have been what it appeared to be. If that is the case, it might help explain why the continued efforts to undo the damages and revitalize the area have not been successful. One cannot fight what one does not know they are up against. Perhaps some new information will help make sense of this, and open up new ideas and avenues in turning things around. Because it appears that more than the decor was altered and taken from downtown Fresno, those many years ago.

A trip down memory lane, when downtown was turned into the failure it never recovered from. Who was running things back then, in the 60s? City Hall, Police chief, developers. Don't forget Bonnadelle.

Fast forward to the present: Do you notice any connections from the good ole days/boys? I do. Retired city employees and the same developers, FBI's 1995 "Operation Rezone", keeping a low profile.

It appears that what was done downtown, continued to spread throughout town right under everyone's noses. The difference was that a method had to be devised to get by with it on public property. Once completed, 40 yrs of neglect followed.

You won't find older records of Fresno - they are mysteriously "no longer available." Pick up a sewer layout and you will find that they no longer line up to parcels - countless structures have been removed as others were expanded and now covering up the evidence. No permits or inspections on file - no one looks beyond the altered plat maps. Instead, we believe these structures to be "original" and we believe those who tell us that we "ran out of housing" necessitating development north.

That appears to have been the plan back in the 60s, however, it was impossible due to water rules and regulations. Evidenced by the City of Fresno's lawsuit on file against the U.S. Supreme Court, attempting to gain water rights to Friant back then. 40+/- yrs has been put into tearing this city apart in order to illegally alter and re-route the water lines, which appears to be behind our so-called "water shortage." But don't take it from me - just ask the former appraiser about his "project." He finally got caught. Hurry, he is not the spring chicken he once was.

Wow, I think you may have hit the nail on the head! I was born here, moved away, came back, moved away, came back, moved away and came back two more times. Still I am amazed at the skepticism I see here. Is it possible for us as citizens of this valley to stop lookng at our problems with such distain, and start offering solutions. Wah! Wah! Wah! Can we for just a moment stop comparing other cities successes and trying to model our future by something foreign to where we live? Let's start looking around and take a little pride in what we have that others do not. This area is rich in ideas that either get squashed by idealistic skeptics, or they go somewhere else because of the persistent one-up-man-ship. I do not believe Fresno is designed to fail, but has lost sight of the vision it once had. I remember walking Futon Mall as a child, playing on the playgrounds while my parents shopped. Afterwards we go for lunch or dinner there. It was beautiful during the holidays, and the fountainsin the evening seemed to explode with color. Man, how is that a design for failure!?
Wm. Brent Whalen

...Yeah, I'm amazed at how many NY'rs wind up here too.

Though I have no idea where in NY Jason is from?

Orcaoid's question deserves a good answer...

First off, there have been areas in and around NY, NJ, Phila. and other areas of Conn. that have gone through issues (somewhat,) similar to here, ---but have been handled very differently.

To understand NY, you have to consider the following:

1. -It's a city of millions, surrounded by boro's that also have millions living in them.
-Millions of people pay to go there to work. (I think it may be up to 8bucks to get into the city, (return is free,) but I may be wrong in that, it may be higher or lower.

-It has a public transportation system that handles (below ground,) millions of people moving --and near as much above ground, -with the only area not served equally by both methods being the upper East Side, (this may be being remedied by the extension of some subways that have been kicked around for quite some time.

-It is a city that has a massive job market, pays quite well, and therefore rewards those who spend tons on transportation with good salaries... (which is why people commute from all over the Mid-Atlantic States on a daily basis, -and often commute on a weekly one to other states as far away as the mid-west. (Upper management, and uppper level execs frequently do a 4 day week, then bounce a red-eye to wherever they live, ---or have a small apartment just outside the city, -then head home at the end of their hitch.

Fresno:
-no comparrison whatsoever in terms of public transportation.
-no comparrison whatsoever in terms of payscale.
-I'm not even going to 'go there,' in terms of weather conditions or air quality, (NYC air is scrubbed out by the ocean constantly... Fresno? ..um)

2. Because it has such a massive influx of workers (white/blue collar, etc,) there is a strong industry in jobs and support business that cater to those commuters, --but also, because it is such a heavilly inhabited city, even 'mom and pop,' bodegas are open late hours, (sometimes 24,) because there his such high density, -so shopping at someplace that is a small market for your daily food is not a big deal, (this is for city dwellers.)

3. Because it has such a massive tide of people who come and go from 'bedroom communities,' you also have those communities geared towards that trend.
-There are huge townhouse complexes and entire towns and neighborhoods, (usually found along the train lines,) that have places to shop and all sorts of 'support,' services, (retail, medical, legal, automotive, schools, etc.) --and know how to tailor to 'those,' waves as well.

--From both camps you have people who go into the city to hang out, and then you have those who stay in their neighborhood and do stuff there, -and then those who go out into more rural areas. (The travel time for most, when wanting to go from one aspect of life to the other is only a few hours at worst, and usually an hour or half hour at best.

Purely using public transportation (with the exception of driving about 4 minutes to the train,)
I could go from my house on a protected waterway, into anywhere I wanted in the city, (which included job, social life, cultural events, etc. etc.)
--As Fresno really doesn't have public transpo? That is not going to happen here.
--In fact, a majority of people who live in NYC don't have cars, (there is a thriving rental industry, however, for people who have licenses and such who can rent a car by the hour, if they want.)

Secondary, or 'smaller cities,' can be much the same.

Some have been swallowed by 'sprawl,' -but it's not seen as the city loosing all identity.
In fact, it's kind of rare that cities and towns in that area 'cling,' to an identity and refuse to adapt.
-What folks don't understand about what is happening to Fresno is: a lot of the changes that are happening regarding the city are normal and healthy patterns that happen with population growth.

Interstingly enough, NewYork City is shifting heavily to becoming more business, and less residential, (though it is still hugely residential,) simply because it's so expensive to live there.
--So these secondary cities are growing and developing their own 'downtowns,' and are doing quite well, (shops are happening, and the cultures who live there are represented.)

A HUGE difference between Fresno and other cities (large and small,) particularly as compared to cities back east is:

-Back east people do not have room to just avoid those who they don't like, and be so spoiled in terms of 'land need.'

To someone who is from an area where there are cities that are hundreds of years old, and have been building in, up, and out, for centuries, -we are used to mixing up and dealing with people on a high density manner.
-Are there racial tensions sometimes? sure.
Are there rich and poor sections? sure.
Are there areas that are more given towards various ethnicities than others? sure.

--In fact, some of the ethnicities that are more notorious and have such a strong gathering factor (back east,) are markedly different out here in Fresno.

(I hear from a lot of Italians and Jews -especially, those who have been back east, that they feel sort of 'on the moon' here, -as their cultures aren't as centered and communicative out here.)
One fellow was telling me how much he admired the Armenians here in Fresno, because, 'though they were pushed out of the town, they thrived, worked hard, and now are quite successful, despite the initial ostracism.'

Back east, you simply cannot live in willful ignorance of other cultures and refuse to have anything to do with other cultures unless you are
A.)extremely wealthy and live in your own private gated community in a very very 'bleached,' town,
or
B.) live in a very very remote area and simply don't get out much, (interstingly both the very rich and the very poor do this, which makes for interesting neighbors.)

We have to deal with people, and we do, for better for worse, from the cradle to the grave.

As far as 'smaller cities,'
-And this is where I am baffled with Jason's comments, having seen this issue being dealt with for as long as there have been towns back east...

-There is a constant shift going on in city-town culture as the industry and main source of life-sustaining work changes:

-One minute a town is a thriving bluecollar industry, and produces steel, locomotives, timber, ag, (whatever,)

-Next, it becomes a major hit and nexus for IBM

-Then IBM pulls out, and you have a huge group of people who are trained who (now,) don't have work, ---then what?

---We're ALWAYS having to reidentify and adjust towns and their images, -because people have different needs and are having to adjust to what is needed, in terms of how to earn a living.

-There are towns that are quite small, and some that are quite large, and their answers as to how to survive and grow often include holding social events, often include building up 'greenspaces,' and often mean doing things that include the people who live there.
-Are there markets and such on the streets? Sure, they have car shows, public concerts, -all sorts of stuff,
-but it's usually based upon what the folks in that town want to do.
(That is a key difference: The towns back east understand that things change, and that the past, -though it may be beautiful and strong, -is the past, -and that different cultures and different social structures are going to happen, Things Change: We get it.)

Fresno's problem?
First? It's a land of folks who 'want it the way they like it, and the way that they remember it.'

Also?
You have several generations of people who do not like being close together, (wheras we're use to it.)
You have several generations that have not been forced to reckon with other cultures and hate them at worst, -or are afraid of them at best.
You have a HUGE difference between the folks who live 'downtown,' (and even 'mid-town,')
--and those who are upper class and of a different race, in the more wealthier areas.

Perhaps the only area where Jason and myself may see Eye to Eye,
Is that Fresno HAS created it's own problem, and has builds this issue. It is a city in a culture that teaches others to care for their ownselves first.
-Anyone who is not 'strong and competetive,' in any of the races, (social, financial, ethnic, etc.) deserves to be discarded, and doing less than such provides a disservice to them and others who need to learn to strive.

-Further?
Because of it's racial problems, and severe classism, severe racism, severe ignorance of other cultures, and unbelieveable selfish nature, ---It will not really see 'DownTown,' as a problem worth sorting out:

How serious is this?

-Well, for openners:

Notice how there is a very definite trend in saying 'Downtown is deserted, nobody lives there, there is nothing there, it's nothing more than a disgusting failure of what used to be.'

Notice how there also ARE people who live downtown, (lots of them,)
-they just happen to be, (for the most part,) not 'rich and white.'

In other words:
You have a major body of people who hold most of the money and power in the city, looking at a huge group of people (who both live, and work downtown,) -and they see right through them and say 'there is nothing there.'
-Not No ONE ---NO THING...
--Even the 'revitalization,' crowd comments like this.
THAT is mindblowing.

As an East Coaster? heck,
being from ANYWHERE else? that is one of the most jarring things you find in Fresno.
-That you have such a small (half a mil, not a big deal, citywise,) amount of people, in a relatively small town, ---and the 'ruling class,' completely refuses to acknowledge it's underclass.

In all cites and towns I've been in back home, the people who lived in the town at least cared about it, and acknowledged the people who lived next to them.
(Not Fresno.)

What I find further interesting is:
Even in towns that are profoundly poor, or who have lost all sense of identity, (or have very low employment rates,) There is still (usually,) a strong sense of 'place.'

Port Jervis, (a small city in the tri-state region,) is extremely poor, and even though it, and other towns in the area (some larger, some smaller,) had major issues,
-It knew how to adapt it's identity, and people knew that they had to pull together to keep the town alive, -and modified it's habits to do so. (It has cottage industries, it has shops, it serves tourist, hunter, and traveller trade, -and it's a bedroom community to folks who ride two hours to Manhattan... (It used to be huge with Railroads and GlassMaking.)

Other towns up and down the states have the same situation.
In fact: you may even find people who will flat out say: '...yeah, you're an asshole, or yeah, I hate you kind, -but I'm not going to sit here and let you starve or freeze to death.'
-There is a strong sense of community and common decency that means that you not only ARE the community (just standing there,) but you HAVE to further the community because you are human...
(It's 'the transplants,' who are often seen as the ones who 'don't care for their neighbors, or neighborhoods.')

Fresno has no need of that.
In a lot of ways, it's the complete opposite.
It has no need to get along with itself.
It can and will look at someone who is different and not care one minute what happens.

(This is another thing that is quite startling, the arrogance.)

It is an area where the wealthy and in power can literally say 'screw you, I don't like you, I'm going to another area and build my own world.' --and it does so.
-On a grande scale back east, that is not possible.
-Even on a minor scale back east, such behavior is viewed as unhealthy and suspicious, and anti-social.

Out here?
By the way folks talk and act? It's been the 'norm,' all along.

In all seriousness?

Before I moved out here? (and told folks where I was headed,) A lot of people who had been here, (and left,) told me that I would not like it here, and that the narrowmindedness, racism, and stubborn myopia was beyond anything I could imagine.
I literally had people (who had no reason to trash Fresno, but who had simply 'been here,' for varying lengths of time, say,
'...just don't go... If you DO go, you'll see what I'm talking about...'

It's easy to say '..yeah, well, they are just dissing Fresno because of the media, or 'yeah well, everybody kicks Fresno.'

-But the truth of the matter is: These folks had no reason to trash this place, and they were spot on regarding the problems that were crippling the place then, and are doing so now.

There ARE some truly wonderful aspects to Fresno.

There are also some truly horrendous aspects to Fresno, too.

Until those in power see the horrendous as being 'worth dealing with,'
(I guess, starting with acknowledging that there is credible and valuable life below 'the promised lands,') The conversation is going to go like this.

'...Why are you picking on Fresno, Fresno is great.'
-where do you live?
'Champlain and Perrin.'
-...have you ever been downtown, to the Tower District, Fresno High Area, or maybe anywhere below Hearndon or Shaw???.'
'...Once, to catch a train, but NO, I don't go down there, it's BAD down there, I just don't GO down there.'

-If I had a dollar for everytime I've had that exact conversation?
I'd be rolling in dough,
(and no, I'd have no interest in buying a McMansion in a gated community...
No disrespect to those who do.)

-And now Jason can give you a 'briefer,' answer, that may include some of the same points as mine,
-but he'll never know, because the man can't handle a long post.

...bummer, dude, bummer.

we didn't have so much smog, haze, etc... I think they're called the Sierra Nevada, but I'm guessing the year you spent here must have bad for smog, on a clear day, they're directly east of Fresno

I'd like to thank you for staying interested in things Fresno & our goings on here. also, I think we need an outside perspective, to get the feel of what others might think, ideas, etc..., a fresh perspective if you will, a different angle, so thanks Jason

I'm always amazed at how many people end up in Fresno, from all over the world, even from NY City

Also, for all you NY'ers, having never been to NYC, am I wrong in saying that the basic premise of the Fulton Mall would work in NYC as a mini-plaza? Seems it would according to the Urban Land Institute lit I read for class, (they came by several years later for a study)
What would you do different?

Question: have any of you ever been to the Farmers Market in the Fairfax area of LA? It has about 1 acre of parking (1 hr free if you save $8 of receipts) & about 2 acres of semi-permanent booths, counter-tops, tables under umbrellas everywhere, & a high-end Mall right next door (same pedestrian walkway, only a row of small planters divide them, with tracks, an old light rail train, they have a little railcar station for it), why can't Fresno do that? We're no 1 in ag, we should have 2 of the biggest Farmers Markets on the West Coast; a big County Fair-type every weekend & an organic one every Thurs by one end of the Fulton Mall

OotV:

Which mountains might those be? In case you weren't aware, I'm not in Fresno: I'm in San Diego. In fact, I'm not even from Fresno: I'm from New York. I spent one year in Fresno, and that was enough for me to realize that the majority of Fresnans are disinterested in the issues facing the city. Personally, I think that has a lot to do with the generally low levels of education in the populace.

Anyway, I never said the problems facing Fresno aren't problems, I just said those same problems are found elsewhere. For reasons as why this may be, I suggest you take a look at "Bowling Alone." It is an excellent read and may enlighten you as to why lack of civic participation is endemic in the US. As for the usefulness of drawing comparisons between Fresno and other areas, I think you'll find that knowledge of what's going on elsewhere changes one's perspective on what is, and what could be. Witness Fresno vs. Portland. Similar population, totally different development paradigm.

Until the people of Fresno demand better, Fresno will continue to grow as it has in the past. That's not denial, that's reality.

it was for the people; family & friends I had here

Fresno is human scale, LA was not

unfortunately we may end up like that,

I don't like the past building spree just finished,

when we look like LA, I'll have to move,

when we pave our farms & ranches,

people will have to figure out where they'll get their food,

if it's from China, well, you all heard what just happened,

even with an FDA we get tainted food, they just barely set-up one,

we need an organic farmers market on the Fulton Mall

we'll need "Victory Gardens", so that when we eat carrots, they're orange for a natural reason, not because they've been dyed with Red no. 8 & industrial Yellow no.2471

in the mid 80's to go to Fresno State, I did 3 unspeakable, unmentionable, unpardonable things, that if I had listened to the Bill's then, I would have never done, yes I admit it, but it was because I was optimistic, idealistic, naive, I was in Bill's eyes, "deranged"

I'm coming clean, so give me a minute, but I, ahem, I like

ummm,

.
.

.
.

I volunteered at the Met while going to college

ate lunch at the Fulton Mall

helped out at the first "Passport Fresno"!!!

Ok I got that off my chest, but don't tell Bill

I don't want him to know that it was for me, so cool helping a then, brand-new museum get off the ground, even if I was just a receptionist/cashier as they came in

or that I thought that the Fulton Mall was an urban park, an oasis in the city, that fit right in with what I was reading about in my Urban Sociology class about NYC & its urban spaces for people places, how they used stairs, steps, to sit, eat lunch, to lull in the sun, people watch, walk, fountains, vendors everywhere at their plazas, but it was zoning that created those miniplazas at the foot of some of its skyscrapers & here I was enjoying lunch sitting by a planter with lantanas in full bloom, butterflies, some shade, lots of people walking by

or marveled that at the then 1980's, at Fresno State, we had people from about 130 countries & that most jumped at the chance to do a booth/display/dance/food to show us a bit of their countries, & the kids, it was fun seeing them run around with their passports getting stamped at the booths they showed up to, families, teachers, kids, college students,

so what happened? I move back in '97 & no "Passport Fresno"?, was it Bill, did he kill "PF"? or people like him? When did he move into town?

but I saw that as a back-handed slap

I know that DT can be revitalized; it has lots of things in place, people that want a vibrant DT, buildings that can be re-used, several distinct areas, the Fulton Mall

& it diffenetly has the young kids, at the Creative Fresno event with Rebecca Ryan at the Memorial Auditorium, it was packed with young professionals, I think I was one of the few old timers there
http://www.nextgenerationconsulting.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/about.biode...

let's see, I have an idea, check this out people, get these groups:

FresnoFamous, http://www.fresnofamous.com/

MindHub, http://www.mindhub.org/

Downtown Association, http://www.downtownfresno.org/

Creative Fresno, http://www.creativefresno.com/

Chamber of Commerce, http://www.fresnochamber.com/

1000 Friends of Fresno, http://www.1000friendsoffresno.org/

Fresno Leading Young Professionals, http://www.flypinfo.com/

Rogue Festival, http://roguefestival.com/

so we get together to have an evening blast at the free speech area on the Fulton Mall, bring your guitars, drums, lets have a "happening" that's like so 60's, pick a day & time, (a no events night)so we have free parking

let's show up, see what Fresno would look like as a fun loving place, poems, art, speeches, music. anyone know any 60's tunes?

Bill McEwen is being extremely clever in his effort to save downtown. Not only is he calling out politicians (Autry) and businessmen (Tutelian), he is also being very critical of Fresnans through bleak sarcasm. He is right, most Fresnans don't care about downtown. Remember, they are the ones who were tempted by the "comforts" of malls and gated communities. So why should we focus our downtown redevelopment plans to lure them back. Downtown will continue to grow with and for those who appriciate this jewel of Fresno. Artists, intellectuals, and other immigrant communities make this area more diverse and unique than any other part of Fresno. So lets move the focus away from more strip malls, big box retailers, and another "river" walk and realize how lucky we are to have broadway studios/vagabond lofts, countless museums, and an untouched Fulton Mall (a cultural paradise).

Plenty of Valley towns manage to do something with their downtowns. Take a visit to downtown Modesto or Visalia. Cute, quaint, populated...I even hear Handford has its act together, tho I've never been.

'..it's not just Fresno. Small and Medium cities all over don't care about urbanism...'

--um,,, how do these towns stay ALIVE then???
You need to look over the walls of the mountains, bud...
Other towns have been faced with issues as bad as this, (and worse,) and they deal with them.

it IS Fresno,
-and if other people were doing the same stuff It makes the problem THEIRs exclusively too,
-just like it make the problem FRESNO's exclusively.

(I'm so tired of the worn out 45 of 'it's universal, it's everywhere, we're facing the same problems everybody else does...')
For a region that is so self-absorbed, I have never seen so much lack of personal responsibility, and such a need to compare itself to others for good and bad...
-I swear, I think I wound up in a control group for a college psych experiment, sometimes...

'...und here ve haf rrrrrats who only like rrrrrats of der kind, und who vill not associate vit rrrrats off other kind,

-und who are completely out for demselfs,
-und who vill piss and moan, und have dis strong opinion, yet, du, nothingk,,, abzolutely, nothingk, (accept bilt new mazes further away...)
Interestingk...'

Da Nile is not just a river in Egypt, --(hey,,, maybe we can even name the new artificial one after it.)

Am I for furthering the inferiority complex? Nope.
Am I for folks dealing with one's issues? Totally.

(That river, of course, happens when they get done shovelling out all the people who are there -who they don't like...
('...ooooh, looka that, gee where did THEY come from???)

-so they can make some changes to attract all the people who they DO like.

--While it's all being bickered about?

-The county ups and leaves,,,
and maybe we'll make it to the Fall without another kid or two drowning in a canal, though I doubt it...

(...at least Blackstone had three lanes of cars and trucks going both ways up and down, sometimes literally, for most of the night over the weekend... with big wheels, itty bitty wheels, pretty paintjobs, airbags in the suspensions, -and base notes coming from speakers that were turning the occupants brains to jelly...)

Does Fresno have issues?
Totally.

Are they terminal?
Could be.

Is there hope of sorting these things out?
-So long as it keeps making comparissons to other sities in other parts of the country (that are nothing like Fresno in terms of it's construct,
municipal structure,
resources,
finances,
weather,
occupation options,
and culture,)
-and refuses to acknowlege ALL of it's own people?

So long as that is being done, Fresno as people knew it is doomed.
It's a strange sort of 'doomed,' though, because all it's doing is following out the course that was laid for it,
THIS is the results of what has been planted and grown here,
(why are folks so shocked??)
-This is not the 'death,' of Fresno, this is what Fresno has been allowed to become, and what it's designed to be, THAT's why it will be nearly impossible to change it... it's what has been built, has been nurtured, and is thriving.

So, I take it Mr. Bill McEwen believes that problems in any arena should not be fixed, but that the players should just move to a different arena.

This train of thought should not be tolerated! Any effort to fix our downtown should be seriously considered as that is a major part of our city and it should not continue to be treated as if it's a small, rundown suburban neighborhood that nobody will notice.

A lot has been invested in our downtown and to pull out now would definately make things worse. We have a multi-million dollar baseball stadium, historical landmarks, an "empty" mall, renovations and additions to our own metropolitan museum, the William Saroyan theater, new loft/housing projects underway and NOW we should just forget about downtown?

We may not be making all of the right choices (ie: the addition of a river before even the Fulton Mall is "fixed"), but I say it's too late and even a horrible move for any city to be content with the kind of thinking McEwen proposes for the rest of us.

Campus Pointe, Fancher Creek, and "The New Downtown" should all be things to look forward to!

PS to Bill McEwen: To say "Downtown Fresno is dead, [so] it's never coming back" is a logical fallacy. Kids don't stay kids forever unless somebody or something kills them. Your attitude is Downtowns death sentence.
559rell | 05.29.07 - 12:11 pm | #

~Rell www.myspace.com/559rell www.myspace.com/trellthareallamane (music production)

To be fair, I don't think most people in medium or large cities care about an urban environment. Witness the NIMBYism that takes place whenever anyone proposes new development in an existing neighborhood that isn't blighted.

It's generally a small but vocal minority that advocates urbanity. Developers do urban when land is expensive, because they can do more stuff with it. Cities like it because they see tax dollars from new development. Fresno's (and the valley) problem is that it has too much land available There's very little incentive to build urban, especially with a disinterested populace. Most people just want an affordable place with the largest possible lot and as much space as they can afford.

So Jarah, are you not planning on returning to Fresno?

But McEwen is right. Fresnans on the whole don't give two shits about an urban environment, and that's made clear by the way we've treated our downtown. Folks who value an urban environment, and not just sprawl, retail, and a backyard swimming pool, leave. Myself included.