because the US only stands for itself, any allies we have or had in the past, do so at their own risk, we abandon them as the wind changes, as policy changes, as new Administrations are sworn in

I pity the Afghan, Kurdish & Iraqi peoples, they will suffer more, after we leave

So why can't America just go in and save all the Hmong people in the jungles?

To state the obvious, it's not very "cool" to hear that my fellow Hmong brethrens planned to overthrow any government. Simply because, I personally, thought that Hmong people have moved away from that type of mental thinking and have branched out to other avenues of which making the American public more aware of our trials and tribulations from Laos.

actually, if you see the documentary "Secret War" shown at FCC a few weeks ago, you can tell that it could have been an act of desperation, thousands of Hmong are dying because of the Laotian Gov, only because they are Hmong & helped us. The Communist Gov wants to cut the American flag from the hearts of the dead Hmong & cleanse them of that foreign corruption

To state the obvious, it's not very "cool" to hear that my fellow Hmong brethrens planned to overthrow any government. Simply because, I personally, thought that Hmong people have moved away from that type of mental thinking and have branched out to other avenues of which making the American public more aware of our trials and tribulations from Laos. However, when this story surfaced in the news, my sense of direction for the Hmong people was lost as I realize that we haven't changed much from our way of thinking since the 1980's. When will Hmong people learn that in order to take action, you must do it by taking the proper actions and not as a misconduct. I'm hoping the future Hmong generation will learn from this and not make the foolish mistakes our elders are currently making.

or someone within the Hmong community was:

An agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French language, "inciting agent") is a person who secretly disrupts a group's activities from within the group. Agents provocateurs typically represent the interests of another group, or are agents directly assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate, or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

thanks to everyone for sharing and being open in this dialogue. i'd like to point out some other details about some of the previous comments:

-- i'd like to clarify that hmong people's true place of origin is relatively unknown. i mention laos in one response because it is where many hmong were born, and that is what most hmong people know or identify with. historically speaking, however, the hmong did migrate into southeast asia from china, but it is believed they migrated into china from another place, and that place is unknown. unfortunately, we have very little written documentation of our history because it was passed down through oral transmission, and since we were considered cast-outs in chinese society, our written history, if there was anything, was destroyed.

-- laos has strong sentimental value to many hmong people, near and far. when your homeland is destroyed, you seek to find a place that is as close in resemblance. for this reason, and others, many hmong chose to settle in the central valley, because of the foothills and sierra nevadas that evoked strong memories of home, and of course, the ag opportunities as well. there are even some hmong elders who are adamant about being buried in the tollhouse mountain cemetary (rather than the belmont ave cemetaries which is more accessible to family) because they want to be buried as close as possible to and facing those mountains.

-- if people only understood the heartbreak and broken promise of this government, to the hmong people, they would understand the motives behind this alleged coup. the hmong people feel a strong sense of betrayal from the u.s. government. those who are left to fend for themselves in the jungles of laos can testify to that statement and tell the story of being abandoned decades ago to still feeling the impact of that abandonment to this very day (as they continue to hide/run for their lives from lao communists, suffer from genocidal acts and violations of human rights, stemming from a war this country started and never finished). this government has created wars that have tragic impacts in communities, not just for the hmong, but for afghans, iraqis, etc. and to top it all off, why would the u.s. normalize trade relations with a communist country (which is what they did in 2005 with laos), or declare themselves neutral with a country that they know is committing genocidal acts or ethnic cleansing campaigns? we hmong people have permanently lost our sense of a home, and i think it's time we call this government out on their betrayal to our people.

I have heard that the General Vang Pao had previously raised money and sent Hmong individuals into Laos in the past few years in hopes of presumably overthrowing the Laos Communist government by spying etc. I have also heard that many of them have never been heard from again presumably captured and imprisoned, tortured and/or murdered.
If this is true, was this alleged plot just the inevitable next step by the General's group in trying to recapture Laos? The attempt to buy Stinger missiles definitely has the capacity of taking down a jetliner so it is understandable that the ATF and FBI were concerned with the plot.

1) Quay Hays coud buy several islands for that $50 Billion
2) Hmong originated in what is now China, before it was China, then were pushed out as the Chinese expanded, several million Hmong are spread mostly in China, followed by hundred of thousands in Vietnam, Laos, & just a few thousands in Thailand before the VN War

I think Hmong migrated to SE Asia in the early 1800's(?)

Lao mts were beautiful to the Hmong that lived there, homesick for

Thanks for posting. My comment about Vietnam was a joke at Quay Hays Valley Ranch's expense. I realize the Hmong homeland is in Laos.

i forgot to credit the website, so here is the link for this article. you can also check out comments people have left:

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=9b8fee2f9bbf...

Jarah, I think you are mistaken in your comment about why Vang Pao didn't just "buy Vietnam".

In case you don't know, Vietnam lacks any kind of sentimental value or meaning to Hmong people who originate from Laos, such as my own parents.

-to me, when someone tells me something I did not know, and enlightens me to what is going on,
-particularly about other societies that I am living among, (who quietly just go about their own business,)
I am extremely grateful for this time of understanding.

Thank you for writing this.
Seriously.
Thank you.

-Eric Field

Alrighty...I'm really getting the itch to say something, so instead of just ranting, I'm going to paste here the article/commentary I recently wrote for New America Media:

===========================================

Vang Pao Case Highlights Hmong Community's Losses

New America Media, Commentary, Mai Der Vang, Posted: Jun 08, 2007

Editor's Note: When 10 Hmong men from California were arrested in an alleged plot to overthrow the Lao government, it sent shock waves through that state's large Hmong community. Old wounds were re-opened and also, says Mai Der Vang, the American-born child of Hmong refugees, new hope—that a long-buried history of genocide, exodus and ongoing oppression might finally come to light.

FRESNO, Calif.--The news on June 4 came as a shock to hundreds of Hmong in California's Central Valley. Ten Hmong men from California had been arrested for allegedly attempting to purchase arms to overthrow the Lao government. Among these men was Vang Pao--a former general in the Laotian army and a Hmong war hero during the "Secret War."

While the Vietnam War raged through Southeast Asia in the 1960s, the CIA recruited thousands of men from the Hmong hill tribes to battle communist forces in a covert guerrilla action that came to be called the "Secret War." They were trained to collect intelligence, rescue downed American pilots, and sever the delivery of supplies along the Ho Chi Minh trail. More than 30,000 Hmong casualties resulted, along with continued genocidal attacks, leading to a huge exodus of refugees into Thailand. Hundreds of thousands of those refugees were resettled in the United States.

No one knows the true intentions of Vang Pao and his men, but I believe it was a desperate attempt to reclaim a lost homeland. Vang Pao maintained a low profile for years, but these recent allegations make me wonder whether he held onto a belief that he could return stability to a people who have had no land since the 1970s.

As a revered Hmong general, this was a burden and responsibility he must have carried for decades, long after he and many other Hmong had settled into their new lives in the United States. I grew up with Vang Pao's portrait on my wall. Each year, on the first day of the Hmong New Year, my grandmother would wake us up early and urge us to put on our traditional Hmong clothing to salute and receive him.

Many Hmong held onto the impossible dream of one day returning to live at peace in the mountains of Laos. My mother often reminisces about her happy childhood there. She farmed with my grandparents, and was proud to raise her own animals. My mother recalls how the morning sunrises shimmered like gold against the lush green mountains. She says she was proud to be Hmong.

Since relocating to the United States, she has been treated for depression. Today, in her forties, she often sits quietly by herself, hardly speaking a word. She barely speaks English and relies on her children to translate. She refers to herself as "dumb," and is so fearful of being targeted because of her race that she never opens her car window when she drives, no matter how hot inside the car.

The United States may have lost the Vietnam War, but the Hmong people lost everything. The lands and homes of our parents were destroyed. Many of those left behind in Laos fell victim to genocidal attacks from communist forces.

Now we learn the revered general has been arrested for allegedly trying to overthrow the Lao government. I find it a paradox that decades ago, the CIA trained, supported and instructed Hmong men to fight against the very people whom Vang Pao and his men are now being accused of trying to oust from power.

Vang Pao and his men have failed in their alleged attempt to overthrow the Lao government, but perhaps they will succeed in getting the rest of the world to take a second look at the current situation in Laos, and the atrocities being committed against many of its people.

According to Amnesty International, the Lao military "regularly attacks [Hmong] temporary encampments, killing and injuring them, perpetuating their life on the run." Video footage and photographs of these atrocities have been captured and distributed by undercover journalists and human rights advocates. Many Hmong, mostly women and children, have gone into hiding in the Laotian jungles; others have been raped and murdered. Packs of Hmong have come forth in desperation to surrender to the Lao government, because they have lost the will to keep running. No one knows what has happened to those who have surrendered. It pains me to know those suffering in Laos cling to the hope that Hmong in America will deliver them from persecution.

Here in Fresno, conversation among the Hmong community focuses on the recent arrests, and the history behind them. "It was our country, our land," said one 46-year-old man who remained so fearful that he did not want to be identified by name. "And to think of all those in Laos today who are still dying because of that secret war that would have never started if the Americans didn't come into our country…America is afraid to admit what is happening in Laos today because of that past."

A 22-year-old Hmong woman, who also declined to share her name, acknowledges that while many young people do not identify with Vang Pao, "if he gets put behind bars, there is a part of us Hmong who will be behind bars too."

Because I believe in the right of every person to live at peace, I condemn and am saddened by the methods allegedly employed by Vang Pao and his men. But there is more to the story than an effort to buy arms. If people better understood the history and circumstances leading up to this event, they also would understand for what cause it was attempted. The word "Hmong" means "free," and what these men stand accused of doing was a feeble attempt to recover that legacy, and a land we lost decades ago.

Pha Lo also contributed to this article.

Mai Der Vang works for New America Media as a youth media coordinator in Fresno.

Orcaoid, you'll have to forgive me for not responding directly to the points you mentioned in your most recent (and thoughtful) post. But I'm going to have to take a step backward and tell you that I've actually been questioning my original viewpoint on this subject.

A friend of mine, whom I greatly respect for his keen ability to articulate himself and cut to the heart of any matter, asked some hard questions of me that forced me to acknowledge some of the inconsistencies in my way of thinking and reasoning. After much thought, I came to the realization that I've allowed my personal feelings and experience to bias much of my opinion on this subject.

I mentioned that I don't think we've been given all the facts by the press and am concerned whether this case will be handled fairly, but that didn't keep me from assuming that some level of crime or wrongdoing had definitely been committed by the accused persons involved. Whatever reasons I have for coming to that conclusion, it's still conjecturing on my part. I should have approached the subject with an open mind and reserved judgment.

And, with regards to my feelings concerning the use of violence... Well, suffice it to say that I'm trying to figure out if my abhorrence for such a course of action is, indeed, too rooted in idealism. I have to admit that I'm hard-pressed to find peaceful resolutions to much of the injustices going on in the world today. The terms "freedom fighting" and "terrorism" still rub me the wrong way, but I would concede that perhaps there is a different kind of violence, that of resistance, borne out of the need to protect and preserve basic human rights that is justifiable. But even as I write that, I'm not really sure what the acceptable parameters for that would be. Needless to say, it obviously warrants a great deal more understanding on my part.

Ultimately, this really is too complex of a topic for me to try and work through overnight and I doubt I'll come to any sort of satisfactory conclusion in the near future. However, I do want to say that I appreciate your sensitivity to the issues concerning the Hmong community and your willingness to engage in an active and open discussion.

Whether you call it freedom fighting or terrorism, no matter how noble or just the cause (which in itself is often subjective), those two terms hold no distinctions for me if innocent lives are lost in the process. There are ways to be an activist and to have your voice be heard without having to resort to violence, and I stand firmly on that point.

Though I find it commendable that you are a conscious objector, I do not think that it is a viable alternate, except for a few within each society, otherwise the power-hungry among us, will take dreadful advantage of what I consider a weakness, you have to be willing to fight, kill or be killed for the BIG things in life; should the American colonists not have issued the Declaration of Independence?
is the US Constitution worth dying for?
faced with Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao, or Pol Pot, would you have taken up the gun?

Witness the Jews during WWII, they did not fight until the end, by then too late, 6 million dead, they found another mass grave in the Ukraine recently. most Jews who fought were under the flags of US, the British Empire & the USSR
Many armies do not respect non-combatant status, but will use it to their advantage, too many examples to mention
See Warsaw Ghetto uprising:
Starting in 1940, the Nazis began concentrating Poland's population of over 3 million Jews in a number of extremely overcrowded ghettos in various Polish cities. The largest of these, the Warsaw Ghetto, held 380,000 people in a densely-packed area in the middle of the city. Thousands of Jews died due to rampant disease or starvation even before the Nazis began massive deportations of the Jews from the ghetto to the Treblinka extermination camp. In the 52 days before September 12, 1942, about 300,000 Ghetto residents were sent to the extermination camps and killed.
At the start of the deportations, members of the Jewish resistance movement met, but decided not to fight, believing that the Jews were really being sent to labor camps rather than to their death. By the end of 1942, it was clear that the deportations were to death camps, and many of the remaining Jews decided to fight.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

That being said, I'm sure I'll have just as strong of an opinion in the near future about the way this case is being handled by government officials and whether these men are even given a just or fair trial.

I think the Hmong need to get more politically active, make sure they are heard with one voice, every Hmong should become a citizen, vote & make their choices known, get courted by the dems & reps, anti-Castro forces get away with crimes regularly, see current example below:

See the following 2 articles on Luis Posada Carriles, trained by the CIA:
USA TODAY
Cuba, Venezuela protest pending release of anti-communist
HAVANA (AP) — Tearful relatives of those killed in bombings blamed on Luis Posada Carriles lashed out at Washington on Wednesday, outraged that the jailed former U.S. operative could soon be released on bond.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-04-11-cuban-millitant_N.htm

By IAN JAMES Associated Press Writer The Associated Press
CARACAS, Venezuela Apr 22, 2007 (AP)
President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that Venezuela will lodge a protest with the United Nations after the U.S. released a Cuban militant on bond, accusing Washington of letting a terrorist go free.
Venezuela had asked the U.S. to extradite 79-year-old former CIA agent Luis Posada Carriles on charges that he plotted the 1976 bombing of a Cuban passenger plane, in which 73 people died.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3066478

There is a general paternalistic attitude toward the Hmong that is reflected in the news as well in many of the posts and comments I've seen that also concerns me, but that just opens another can of worms that's probably better left closed for now.

as to can of worms, 4 thoughts;
1) That could be because the Hmong have not gotten used to dealing with the Western power structures yet, that should be changing soon, I think that General Vang Pao's arrest will lead to many changes, I saw several hundred Hmong gathered yesterday to protest his arrest, Mao said, "that political power comes from the barrel of a gun", if you look at the current American example its, "that political power comes from the barrels of money & a block of votes to get your bidding done".

2) the struggle for cultural identity when being pulled by 2 competing cultures, do you lean more to one side or the other, or blend into a harmonious whole? How do you do that, should your children be identified as Asian-Americans, SE Asians, Hmong-Americans or Americans? That choice (or multiplicity of choices), will be the path (or paths) of the future for your people. Choose wisely.

3) dialog & debate is better than bitterness & denial. lets talk openly about our hurts & pains, our aspirations, dreams, how we should treat each other, we may not always agree, but its better to know where you stand, than just hide the truth. If people treat us like kids or mentally deficient, how should we treat them?

4) with a "can of worms" you catch fish, so lets catch the future together, get politically active, stay active, listen, learn, do not despise the elderly, learn wisdom from them, teach values to your children, like; beauty, honor, love, caring, duty, respect, devotion, honesty, hard work, etc…, to name a few.

already there are many Hmong in political offices; Minnesota, Wisconsin & California
And Blong Xiong proved that a Hmong could reach across the ethnic divide & get elected in a non-Hmong district & if anyone saw him on "Valley Press" a few weeks ago, it is obvious that he is a thoughtful person, a thinker, a doorway for Fresno's future

...and, as he knows the the entirety of Hmong culture is new to me, (I had not even heard the word until 1998,) I asked straight out... 'dude, what do you think of this? I mean, what's the feelings among the Hmong community about this?'

What was interesting was that he had no real knowledge of who the local involvement were, and that he stated that the Hmong leader who is in charge of this was sort of revered almost like a god by Hmongs. (not viewed literally as one, just with very very high respect.)

What he was concerned was '...how there has been such a struggle to get things all sorted out regarding the whole naturalization / immigration issue, and now 'this,' happens...'
'..so now what are Americans going to think, like we're on par with terrorists or something...'
-He felt that it gave the wrong impression of what his people were about, and that the timing of this situation was a bad thing.

I tried to convey to him, that:
-though coup's and such are not unheard of (that other countries have them,) that what may be an overall view of how this was going on was (possibly,) the following:

1. Americans, (particularlly older ones who have been around since cold-war days,
---really aren't into communism, don't like it, don't trust it, and would see someone trying to supplant a communist leadership as something done 'for the greater good.' (that it would almost be seen as a healthy move to wrest the control into sane and fair hands.)

2. That, when a single bomber can cost millions and millions, most folks would be sort of 'impressed,' (as stated in above posts,) by the rather thrifty aspect of being able to knock out some communist leadership for just a smidge under 10mil...
(and that such a thing would be seen as a bit 'ballsy.')

He understood that and I think a lot of folks will see it that way too (communism = bad, thumping communism so cost effectively = pretty impressive.)

But I think his initial (and remaining,) concern that this would put a black eye on the naturalization efforts,
-and make his people look like something threatening or troublesome to folks, and that at this time, it was again, not good.

Suey, thanks for sharing a POV from the Hmong community. I was fairly shocked to hear this news and am sure it will have huge impacts in the Hmong community in Fresno and elsewhere. I share your concern about how the government will handle the case.

The issues that you write about are so much more complex than can be covered in a simple post.

First, I want to make it clear that when I mentioned the money, I was responding to Jarah's aside about how it only costs $10M to overthrow the Laotian government. She referred to the amount to take a shot at Quay Hays, but in doing so, I felt that it undercut the actual significance of the amount that Vang Pao hoped to raise and the means by which he was going to do it--which I conjecture would have been at the expense of poor Hmong families.

As a member of the Hmong community myself, I know very well the issues my people face both in the US and abroad. But for those who needed the history and current events lesson, your post served well.

Of course, the Hmong in Laos and Thailand have the right to defend themselves from harm, to live their lives without fear of persecution from their neighbors or their own government, to have homes, and to raise their families in peace--all the things that many Americans, myself included, often take for granted. But the injustices that are being inflicted on the Hmong are not very different from what is occurring and has occurred to other peoples in other parts of the world. And as evidenced from the ongoing bloodshed in these places, particularly in the Middle East, violence is not the way to right injustices or to restore any sort of order or peace. Whether you call it freedom fighting or terrorism, no matter how noble or just the cause (which in itself is often subjective), those two terms hold no distinctions for me if innocent lives are lost in the process. There are ways to be an activist and to have your voice be heard without having to resort to violence, and I stand firmly on that point.

Now how much of a terrorist is Vang Pao or his alleged co-conspirators really? According to the press, these men plotted to overthrow the Laotian government and cause destruction on the scale of 9/11. To say that I'm more than a little skeptical about the accuracy of this reporting is an understatement. But even if only some parts of it are true, I would still be disappointed in the course the general chose to take. I can't help but think that his actions can only hurt the community, though many others are of the opinion that his possible incarceration may be the catalyst needed to bring awareness to the Hmong plight abroad.

That being said, I'm sure I'll have just as strong of an opinion in the near future about the way this case is being handled by government officials and whether these men are even given a just or fair trial. There is a general paternalistic attitude toward the Hmong that is reflected in the news as well in many of the posts and comments I've seen that also concerns me, but that just opens another can of worms that's probably better left closed for now.

about where the money came from

but ever since we lost the Vietnam War, we have reneged on all our promises to those that fought alongside us

you may be too young to remember the helicopters taking off from Saigon, with people scrabbling to get on before South Vietnam fell to the communists in April '75, we officially had left VN in April '73, declared "Peace with Honor" ala Kissinger & Nixon

I enlisted in the Air Force in Aug 1973, sent to basic in Oct '73
I was watching TV in our barrack's dayroom when VN fell, thinking that they might ship us there, but in the end, we did nothing for them but give empty promises

so look up:
re-education camps
boat people
MIA
killing fields

the Hmong, Cambodians, Laotians, & Vietnamese are here because we lost, the CIA recruited the Hmong, check out the statue in front of the Courthouse, they died 10:1 to rescue our downed airmen, with those odds, I would have let the guys fend for themselves, (ala Behind Enemy Lines) but they stuck with us
they are our refugees, our responsibility, our mistake

the Hmong continue to be harassed, punished, killed in Laos because they helped us, the Lao mountains have been their home since the 1800's, the Pathet Lao did not forgive & forget, so a small liberation army still roams the mts, refugees stream into n Thailand, the Thai gov repatriates them back, into the waiting (small) arms (fire) of the Lao gov.
the camp Wat Tham Krabok in Thailand recently closed, sending about 2 thousand here
http://www.refugeesinternational.org/content/article/detail/4504/

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/Thailand_28113.html

so, what are the Hmong supposed to do? Are they freedom fighters or terrorists?

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't think people realize what that $9.8M actually means in terms of how it was amassed. That money had to come from somewhere and it certainly wasn't from Vang Pao's own personal wealth. I also highly doubt that it came from secret donations made from wealthy individuals who have any compassion for the Hmong people and any cause they might be fighting for. Vang Pao and co. have probably been collecting that money for years now with the bulk of the contributions coming from already poor Hmong families. Most Hmong people would fork over their last penny to help a relative or clan member out of a sense of obligation or responsiblity whether it be to pay for a wedding, a funeral, or cause they believe in.

There's absolutely nothing cool about plotting violence against any people for any reason. That these guys were serious and earnest in their goal and that the money probably came from those who could least afford it just makes it even worse.