Funny you should mention Hanford. A certain blogger in our midst had a little to do with Hanford's widely successful Thursday Night Market Place.

If any of you haven't had a chance, check it out. Sadly, it hasn't evolved past the original concept, but is still creating a huge draw - on a Thursday night, no less.

Another place worth visiting is Paso Robles. Norma Moye and the Mainstreet program in Paso is a National Award winner. I have only heard of the amazing things that she's done there. So, I have scheduled an appointment for Tues. July 3. Look for an update from me then.

I have a question for those of you who know Fresno better than me. I am from Hanford and currently live in Reedley (a city that has made some decent efforts to remain connected to its heritage). Besides, I'm fairly new to the whole downtown revitatization conversation.

To the point - my question is really a rephrasing of Craig's original question. Is downtown the heart and soul of the city? If so, is the heart and soul of Fresno sick? Further, what is/was downtown? Was it the plans of people or was it the people?

It just seems that movements like the one being discussed here are rarely birthed from the government. They are usually birthed from visionaries who aren't afraid to move forward without asking permission. The power of a collective will doesn't ask permission. I'm not talking militancy. I'm talking love for the people and place. The old adage - love is blind - is fitting here. We may not like what we see, but from what I hear from some of you posters we still have a love for the place and the people.

I firmly believe that's where the real transformation will take place. Once we move, the gov'ment will adjust to us. "By the people, for the people."

it snows here, even hails

remember, that the 4 major influences on our weather are the combination of;
1) season
2) jetstream
3) Pacific moisture
4) location

& even though you can't see them 80% of the time, there's mts, just over the horizon, so stuff can spill over to

AntiMusick is right - about the only thing that Fresno seemed to enjoy more than tearing down great old buildings was tearing out fig trees! Here's another view of the old courthouse.

They said it wasn't earthquake safe, and they needed a bigger building. Ok, well, it could have been brought up to code, and restored as a museum, and a new courthouse built elsewhere. That's what Merced County did, and their courthouse was basically the same original design as the Fresno one. But instead the county supervisors wanted something new and shiny, and that's what they got.

TREES!!!

I mean, it ain't exactly New Hampshire, but, those are actual trees in the town square...
--Real trees in snow...

(what devil convinced you people to give up on this (initial) agenda???)

...everytime I start to print up the signs and banners that say 'Anti-Music needs to be stoned in the square and left under a pile of rocks,'

-you go and put up something like this, -which is not only sheer brilliance, but a gorgeous, gorgeous picture (that is worth 4 thousand words...)

(Joe Moore's night shot ain't too shabby either, but he runs an excellent radio station, so he gets to share the limelight on this...)

Really fellas, These are stunning photos.
Thanks for putting them up...

---And is that actually REAL SNOW??? (you people did this at one time??? ---and you STOPPED???)

It was a flower silo that blew up, wasn't it... c'mon, don't tease me...

'Tear it Down' must have been Fresno's motto for many year's
Do you prefer yesterdays Courthouse or today's?

Vision seems to be what we all agree is lacking. No one has a comprehensive vision for the future of Fresno and Downtown. How do we get the public engaged in a creative envisioning process that everyone will sign off on? Then there would be specific goals to work towards, and the success of elected officials in making progress could be better judged.

I loved the 1950's picture of downtown Fresno. It looked like a great place to be.

Joe has a deeper understanding of downtown Fresno than people who lived through all of this s**t.

How could anyone argue with the points that he presents. Stock on genius. I've been doing this downtown revitalization stuff for over 20 years now, and Joe makes it look effortless.

Joe, will you consider copying and pasting this to mindhub too? You can take out my name and the thermometer reference, since they're out of context outside of this post.

Would you like to debate the Mayor on Thursday by any chance?

Craig
Fresno: Garden City under the Sierra Nevadas

Well Craig, right now the thermometer is maybe just a bit above freezing. We have "potential" but little else, at least when measured against other downtowns in the Central Valley. Merced, Visalia, Modesto, and Hanford all are far ahead of where we are right now in Fresno.

One big problem is we lack a clear vision of what Downtown Fresno should be and what role it will play in our city, and the region, aside from being home to government offices. The mall was built in 1964 to ensure that Fulton street remained the retail hub of the region. Whether you love the mall, hate it, or are indifferent, you have to admit it failed at that main goal. And Downtown probably never will be the region's main retail hub again. But while plenty of people have suggested alternate concepts for the future of Downtown, no one has been able to "rally the forces" so to speak, and get any traction on implementing any long term vision.

The one trend that has been consistent over the years though, and the one that we still see today is alive and well in the River Walk plan is the effort to suburbanize downtown. It began in the immediate post-war years. As people began to flee to the suburbs, the idea was to erase the "bad things" about downtown. That generation looked at Downtown Fresno and saw something that to them was crass (all these blinking neon signs) chaotic (traffic, street parking), dirty, ugly, old, provincial, etc. Suburban areas had nice big parking lots, flower beds, no gaudy neon signs, and were about as antiseptic as you could get. This was the 50's, and early 60's after all. The mall brought (or attempted to bring) those very values to downtown. It brought order, art, landscaping, and a slower pace to this busy, gritty, and somewhat (charmingly) tacky old street.

This is also the same post-war mindset that led the county to tear down the old county courthouse, almost led the city to tear down the Warnors Theatre for a parking lot, to destroy the downtown street grid, to tear down almost every building on Broadway Avenue to erase "blight" etc. The past was old, something to be ashamed of. We wanted to be the city of the future, and erase all of that stuff that seemed too "provincial" for our suburban aspirations. The future was here, and it was buses, not streetcars, stucco, not brick, low one story buildings, not 3 or 4 story structures, and of course, big flat asphalt parking lots like they had at Manchester.

The problem is that today, those things that the post-war generation wanted to get rid of about urban places, are the very things many other cities have embraced to great revitalization success! But despite that 180 degree change in the nationwide concept of urbanism, the City now wants to further suburbanize downtown with a fake lake and stream, close more streets, tear down more pre-war buildings, build more stucco clad disasters, add some big box stores, and make a "sports town."

The other consistent thing is the lack of any real planning, and the idea that all we need is a quick fix. We built the mall, but didn't have any plans for property improvements along the mall. We built the stadium, (which is truly world class) but didn't have any revitalization plan to go along with it. Aside from Steve Geil who just bought the Hobbs & Parson building, there has been ZERO private investment around the stadium. Now it's a fake lake that is going to do the trick. We're always looking for the "silver bullet." It reminds me of the gambler who is always "just one bet away" from winning the big one!

Now the mayor will say that we need an attraction to draw people downtown (they said the same about the mall and the stadium) and that a fake lake will mesmerize shoppers and investors. Maybe the attraction should be a downtown that is unashamed to be urban, a real city, with streets and cars and pedestrians, sidewalks and storefronts and vendors. Nightlife till 2am, neon lights, energy, and a world's worth of diversity all within walking distance. That's the "attraction". The tranquil setting of a Disney-like fake lake doesn't fit well with the concept of what a real downtown is. Maybe Fresno doesn't have a big enough population of people who want that urban experience just yet. But we need to start planning for it now. The scary thing is that if we continue to try to make downtown more like a suburban park or shopping center, and less like a real city, we might wind up setting ourselves back another 50 years.

I think the Mayor and his team have the best of intentions. And not all of their ideas are bad. But we need to take a serious look at this plan and make sure that we don't repeat our own past mistakes.

It seems that Fresno is scrambling, scratching, clawing, working toward holding on to its heritage.

Donald Trump offering to save Running Horse - another sign of Fresno working toward something.

The results - your didn't ask, besides we won't know until later. You just asked for a snapshot of the here and now.

And a good snapshot of the here and now almost always includes remembrance of the past with an eye to the future. The past is open for interpretation and the future is open for construction.

Get rid of the Tijuana looking businesses, and bring in someone with a logo and a clean image.

my, my, isn't that a little bit racist? what makes Mexican stores a bad start for DT? If it could just expand from that, mix it up?

question: who do you think owns all those buildings anyway?
why are most left empty for decades at a time?
what are those owners waiting for, 1000% increase in the value of their properties? before long, they'll have to tear down all those unkempt buildings
where are all the entrepreneurs, ready for the challenge of a new coffeeeshop, the used book store, the sandwich shop, the local "cheers" bar, the _______________ (you fill in the blanks)???

then answer, "why do Mexican stores fill in the gap?"

Big Box Stores are not the bad guy.

you have to have a mix, 1 too many Bigboxes, spells the doom of all the little boutique & novelty stores, why shop at Humberto's Shoes or Nina's Candles, if you can go to Target or Wal-Mart next door? they all get their stuff from China, yet price it for Americans, BB's get all the benefits of low cost, low overhead products for high priced fashion retailers.

The bad guy is the one who refuses to be open minded enough to see another's plan and consider it.

within reason, I mean every proposal should be looked into, but we should not be the only ones doing something, if we go out on a limb, lets say, build a river by Kern Street, would it pay for itself in 20 years? what are the cost/future taxes earned ratios? etc., etc...?

The bad guy is the one who thinks he knows it all, and poopoos everyone elses ideas.

so, how do you evaluate proposals of this kind?
what is your vision of Fresno's DT?
why do you think it would work?
what effort have you put into DT's future so far?
are you willing to get sweaty, join groups to improve Fresno?
and would you?

it obviously is not to City Hall, otherwise they would have tried to fix DT more than once every 40 years

its obviously not for the majority of Fresnoids (pronounced Fraes-nwaah), who pack the Village @ Fashion Fair, Riverpark, Villagio, or FigGarden,

nor the Toweroids (pronounced Tao-ray) that are trying to keep their little piece of Fresnese (rhymes with "fresh cheese") alive & well

it tells me, that collectively, no one has done much nor cared for DT, except those few that were adventurous (or foolish) enough to try

lets see;
abandoned buildings, abandoned people, poor planning ( I mean how many cities close off streets for bigbox projects like CRMC(or detour around major streets for new developments?)

poor enforcement of all codes, (except PARKING, why is that?)

the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that by letting big gov crowd into DT, they spelled the doom of what they were trying to save, I mean, how many gov workers stay after 5PM for anything? n'est paux?

My

this = that

were a series of examples.

The question is...what does our downtown tell us about who we are...as a city? I thought others might have some clues that we all could learn from, or at least laugh with.

As for big box stores, they are different from chain stores. I don't believe that SLO has a wal-mart or a Lowe's in their downtown. I have actually taken van loads (literally) of people to SLO to see how they have successfully integrated chain stores with their locally-owned stores. The presence of Gap in downtown SLO actually increased foot traffic for neighboring downtown merchants.

Open-minded? If you are referring to me, the writer of this blog, then I'll need some other examples of my lack of open-mindedness. What would you suggest that I be more open-minded about?

If you are referring to me as a know-it-all, then I can assure you that you are wrong. I know very little, and I am often wrong. But I do try to share what I have learned, and also try to back up my opinions. If I don't please feel to challnge me or my ideas (as you have done).

But here is something that I do know...I have been watching, studying, working and learning in the areas of downtown and neighborhood revitalization for about 20 years. I have worked with people who know more about these subjects than I could ever know. I do know some things in these areas, but am always happy to learn more.

Craig
Fresno: Garden City under the Sierra Nevadas

My issue is with the comment of how big box stores aren't creative. I have been to many, many beautiful downowns that have these so called big box stores that are very successful. Just because a store isn't a mom and pop locally owned store doesn't make it bad. In fact, it makes a downtown more viable to have a starbucks, ross or multi screen national movie theater. I spent the weekend in San Luis Obispo - spent a fortune at Sephora cosmetics on my college age daughter. Visited Victoria's Secret and Ross. Had ice cream at Cold Stone. The downtown was PACKED! Is that a downtown with no creative vision? No. It's a great place. What Fresno's downtown NEEDs is for a big box store to agree to come in. Get rid of the Tijuana looking businesses, and bring in someone with a logo and a clean image. Big Box Stores are not the bad guy. The bad guy is the one who refuses to be open minded enough to see another's plan and consider it. The bad guy is the one who thinks he knows it all, and poopoos everyone elses ideas.

Downtown as a thermometer says the patient is in critical condition and hanging on by a thread. It also says the people in the area lack collective will, as does much of the city.

I see:

A mediocre city with a lack of connection to it's heritage that is TRYING to get it together...yet again...

Let's hope it all works out this time around...

Yeah, I have my gripes wit tha proposed revitalization plan...but, it's been told thru various other people on various Fresno related sites so I'll just leave it at this... I choose to focus on tha potential.

~Rell www.myspace.com/559rell www.myspace.com/trellthareallamane (music production)

Downtown sort of strikes me as a dysfunctional relationship where folks can't just hang it up and go their separate ways.

-or-

having hung it up, they're still all freaked out about what their 'ex,' is doing. (...hello, control issues, lack of focus, inability to move on???)

It's not really a secret that there is a whole new Fresno that has been built from Hearndon North.
-The average income per houshold is quite high,
-It's clearly becoming 'it's own,' world -and there are shops, restaurants and retail (etc. etc.) ---as well as business, --that just solidify what you'll hear when you talk to a Fresnan (sometimes as old as 50 to 60 '...I don't go downtown, it's dead, and I hate it.'

-Okay, fine, if that is the case, let them stay up where they're comfortable and build their own little utopia... God Bless'm.

But, Downtown is not empty, (yep it has a lot of vacant buildings,) -but there is a bonafide community(s) all around from Hearndon South, (quite a ways, actually,) -and it's just chock-full-o-folks.

Now, who these folks be?
-Honestly? A lot of people who aren't the same color, and a lot who aren't the same financial bracket as the folks who live in the neaux fresneaux.
--But they still live there, still live their lives, and are a valid 'downtown.'

I kind of think, since this whole 'integration,' thing (that new idea from like, 60 years ago,) didn't catch on so hot around here, ---(again,) let folks stay in the stellar coiffed regions, --and really let downtown develop into what the folks who live there want.

-Too often I hear of the culture of downtown as being 'filthy, disease ridden, poverty stricken,' and like some sort of Tijuana Theme park on bad acid and chicken that was left out too long...
---The people down there aren't into that,
THEY live there, Basically they are just folks like anyone else, and could probably use a hand in developing things business and property wise....
so maybe help them to develop things culturally and economically (etc.) along the lines that they feel comfortable in..?
Why not?

Problem?

The folks who decided 'bag this, we're out of here,' --are still controlling, (or wanting to,) control what is happening downtown.

'...We need to build a this, We need to build a that, We need to attract some PEOPLE... (um, yeah, I know that some folks have issues with this, but last time I checked? Latinos, African Americans, Hmong, and poor whites are still considered PEOPLE... I mean, not by everybody, (but that's okay, people that low on the scale in human-ness have a remarkable habit of taking themselves out of the gene pool in other ways.)

-I'm hearing that, instead of low-rents on buildings, --they're too high, (so who's going to go down there and do anything?)

The city has to decide once and for all to let stuff go it's own way, or actually DO something with all these empty containers (buildings,) that it has a death grip on...

People are saying that 'entrepreneurship,' was an idea that was introduced, and then died...
What?
That's Horseshit.

There are some young(ish,) people who are actually taking courses, trying to build stuff, trying to develop businesses, -and they are doing so.
-Is it happening as fast or as widespread as we need to see? No. And the folks I've talked to who are trying to even build something that will work, (and is already doing quite well in a very temporary set up,) --had to practically crawl acrossed broken glass to make that happen.

---And that's another area where the city has to decide:
'...Okay, we got dude here, he's got a plan, he wants to make a go of it, financially, let him have a place to do it, ---and help him out...'

-If it tanks, it tanks, ---but if if flies, you have successful business happening downtown again, (my god, what a thought.)

Sometimes I get the feeling that, despite all the great discussion of how to 'fix,' downtown, it all is a wasted effort to get all that emotionally and personally invovled...
Why?

Because it's sort of obvious that there are people who have the ability to keep it just as screwed up as it's (apparently,) been all this time, -and talking to them, (and them listening,) is like trying persuade one of my cats to take up swimming lessons.

They don't know what they want to do with it, just don't want anyone ELSE doing anything with it either...

Well I guess it would have to be saying "potential is here, now what?"

There a lot of things with a ton of potential in this world, but without guidance much of it goes to waste.

My question is, what does the condition of a city's downtown tell us about that city?

It's not so much a question about what is or isn't, it's a question about what a symptom reveals about the people/businesses/institutions/government.

Craig
Fresno: Garden City under the Sierra Nevadas

the last real workable idea was the Fulton Mall & it was promptly shot by City gov

with poor follow through,
1) all those freeways that have been completed in the last few years were supposed to have been started right afterwards, but weren't,
2) expansion north, northwest & east instead, no new housing DT,
3) with no way to move people but through main streets, like Blackstone,
4) Herndon should have been a real freeway,
5) major developments away from DT were always approved, featuring big box retailers, leaving the little DT guys to pick up the scraps,
6) abandoned buildings were left abandoned, with nary a peep, case in point; Hotel Fresno, abandoned 25 years ago, left as an eyesore all that time, then all of a sudden it's a nuisance?
7) streets were cut up, 1-ways made, detours, streets never repaired, parking, poor signage, confusion reigns,
8) homeless camps, dumps, left to fester,
9) studies, plans, never implemented,
10) City tries entrepreneurship, fails,
11) watches "Field of Dreams" too many times, builds a stadium, they don't come, what's the average attendance? where do fans eat, shop, drink? (bet no one knows, but I bet it ain't nearby)
12) grand ideas every 40 years.