What an amazing picture. I've always wondered what it looked like before it was closed off.
It'd be amazing to see that area thriving again. What if the street where opened back up?
Stores would be easier to access. There wouldn't be that looming threat of parking garages.
I've stopped at so many places I would have never known where there simply because they caught my eye as I drove by, and because it was convenient to stop at the time.

I mean, it would mean ripping out the park benches, water fountains, and trees. But honestly, are they really such an attraction?

Just an idea.

motivation for change. eyes of the community at large focused on the issue. interest from builders to create urban dwellings. creative minds who provide artistic footprints so that when viewed eyes will see the culture and lives that dwell within.

... the billionaire can pursue riverpark ... among which they will undoubtedly find their like-minded counterparts.

(if html can't be embedded, be sure and check out http://www.savenetradio.org - please, before its too late)

What we need is a billionaire to build everything that would be needed downtown all at once. housing, shopping, entertainment all these need be provided and coexist in order for down town to be revitalize. Having one without the other isnt going to cut it.

Hey if it is cool enough? I bet not. Has anybody explored it or mapped it?

Not to worry, the canal isn't going to happen. I'm sure you VOTERS will prevent that debacle from ever occurring.

hummm... the comment selection piece didn't work earlier so the comment went to the blog section. It is good enough to read because it addresses these issues; "Downtown revitalization".

Oh, startling discovery: over 120 years ago the Chinese built a large series of tunnels in Chinatown that run throughout Downtown. When they begin work on any sort of river in Downtown the water will flood the existing tunnel system causing great damage to structural integrity of the building infrastructure.

Can we all spell cost over-runs?

I don't think that the mall was the catalyst for suburbanization, rather, it was simply a product of that era and those post-war values. It was a response to the suburbs and was an attempt to re-invent the idea of an urban space. That's not saying it's good or bad, just trying to place it in historical context. I like the mall, love the art, and wish it was as great as it once was. I just wish it would have been built somwhere else or in a different way. I'm undecided on what the best course of action should be for its future, because I see both sides of the issue. However, when it comes to NEW projects, we need to think about what worked and what didn't with past projects like the Fulton Mall, and then apply those lessons to whatever we do in the future.

Re: urban parks and open space - it's not that we don't need them downtown - we DO! For example, Eaton Plaza needs to be finished (it's only taken 50 years now!) We just need to realize that removing MORE streets and replacing them with such features isn't a good revitalization strategy. Streets are often called "arteries" and they perform much the same function as the arteries in our vascular system. The more they are closed, the harder it is for the rest of the body to function and thrive.

Kern Street has great potential right now, the way it is, as an authentic urban street. I think the Mayor's Kern Street Promendade plan (buying the Virginia Hotel, Berkeley Building & Gottschalks) is an excellent one, just minus the "river". That area probably has more potential to be a vibrant urban space than any other downtown street. Closing it off, losing the street parking, making it difficult to get from one side of the street to the other, and tearing it up for a narrow little canal is quite foolish, expensive, and repeats so many of the mistakes made so long ago.

There is this love for the disdain of the church...

Breaking THAT down, their is this love for the disdain of Christianity...

Some folks come right out with it, others sort of comment, and then wait until there are only 'likeminded,' folks in the room, and then everybody has a chuckle, (or sometimes venomous comments) about those of us who have an 'invisible sky daddy,' (I believe that's what it's referred to, no?)

That this area is so 'churched,' is unusual...

That the churches are so self-absorbed, (because the church is actually little more than the people... so the People are self absorbed...)

There are those of us who are heavilly involved with our churches, other churches, and people in general who do not fool around and simply take nor give pot shots.
I happen to be one of them.

I will also draw no punches when it comes to my own fellow believers choosing (not,) to lay down their own interests and juvenile self-absorbed ways, (and quite hypocritical behaviors,)
-and don't expect anyones envy...

But, along with dealing with 'my own people,' I also see something else...

The profound need in the valley for there to be 'derision in general.'

It would appear that if there is nobody to blame or hate, you people really don't know what to do with yourselves...
(sorry, but there it is...)

Among the churched?
We have no excuse and it's wrong.
The very God who creates us, endwells us, and who salvages us, was all about
a.) caring for others and
b.) being good stewards of what we've been entrusted (this means land, cities, animals, etc. etc.)
-you see, we've been told that even IF we own something here in this life, --it's purely on loan, and when we give it back, (to God,)
It's going to be '...so _______ how did you do with this (life,) that I gave you to care for?
(your spouse, your kids, your cars, your house, your neighbors, your land, your pets, your water, your town, your situation in general,,, -how did you do with those poor folks and the sick and the dying who I sent your way, -how did you show them what I as all about, as well as my Son??? Hhmm?')

Whether Christians accept the responsibility or not, does not remove it's being there... so yes, the ministers and missionaries, priests and such, ALL FOLLOWERS are responsible -regardless of their degree of maturity.

-And there is a time we all will face where we are 'judged,' so to speak and evaluated for how we did with our tenure here in this life.
-So, yeah, we're screwing up big-time, and need to grow up.
For a 'movement of people who have true hopes in our hearts, and a truth to help heal,' -we're more often more easily confused with monkeys on radial tires in the zoo watching soapoperas while masturbating...
(How can I say this?
---The church is commanded to be an instrument of healing, (yep, like real healing, in all areas, (medical, social, financial, agricultural, you name it... We're supposed to be caring for others as a main focus, -and conducting proper maintenance on ourselves, (instead we have it completely backwards, ---and really are doing a poor job of even maintaining all that is not for our immediate gratification.) --that's pathetic.

(Now... I'm sure the 'non-churched,' or those who are not Christian, --nor have use for such fables and falsities find this all hysterically funny,,,
-or sad in it's delusions.. ('those poor fools, needing to believe in a god at all, let alone one that is invisible and so narrow minded..')

Okay fine, have your feelings towards our beliefs, and have those feelings towards those who preceeded YOUR ancestors, -who are YOUR ancestors and who put YOU in this position...

I find it interesting that there is a passage that Christ said referring to (His fellow) Jews.
'-No longer shall you say because our fathers drank sour wine (vinigar,) in the wildnerness -that our teeth are on edge.'

Now,,, understand something this is not as a reference against the Jews nor any other people group...

-It IS a signature time (to any who read the Bible, even as a purely a literary work,)
-where someone of a noted character, seen as a leader, who represented a people group spoke clearly to that people group:
'...the time has come where you no longer can blame your ancestors, and have to stop pissing and whining, -and have to take responsibility for your own lives, your own actions, (and,) your own outcome.'

This was a religious / social / political leader speaking to a large group of people.

Fresno, -even among the 'non-churched,' or the 'non-religious,' is a very very devout town.
(More than most others I'v seen.)

-First off? between the ages of 30's to 50's there is a HUGE group of people who have taken on this affect of being 'Buddhist,' of some sort or another... -It's the new 'black,' in terms of social and personal understanding...
Fine then...

I imagine there are a fair amount of people who will claim 'agnosticism,'
Then this (near buddhist,) 'flow,' 'spiritual not religious,' thing...

Then there is this huge crowd of those who are banded together simply in their common disdain for 'puritans,' and 'the hypocritical church,' --that has assailed so much, (including downtown.)

NeoPagans? Wiccans? lovely to have you out this morning...

Can't leave out the big hitters on the other side of Abrahamic genaelology (Islam,) etc, etc...
You look marvelous and I wish you all peace.

Okay fine then...
The lot of you, you have people who YOU listen to who you have as leaders
(and 'anarchists,' don't get me started on how I keep hearing '..um, like, we don't need leaders, um,like we'er not a religion...'
--You HAVE leaders, you have people who you listen to who make sense to you, and you most definitely practice a religious code and it's quite apparent,
(it's just the swing in the opposite direction away from 'those puritanical repressive church people.')

-Hasn't anyone of 'ANY of these tribes,' stood up and said to you
'...um, folks, all we're doing is pushing this see-saw in the opposite direction
-BUT WE'RE STILL RIDING IT...'
(hello?)

Now personally?
My reasons for calling up short the church and 'God's People,' are probably much different than most folks.
I kind of see them in medical terms, and wish the patient well, thriving, and (actually,) ministering to others (and to minister means to serve,)

--and I totally get it that a lot of people will look at the very concept of completely giving onesself to a God, and following their will as a stupid obscenity... (no problem, folks have felt this way for ages... I'm used to it...)
-Besides, any honest Christian will tell you that the first thing that happens with us is 'death to self,' -life in Christ.
--and nobody wants to completely lay down their own desires and take up those of someone elses, -even if that other person is God.
(So there is a fundamental human struggle there that we all face.)

But my question to all (referring back to the statement of my God to His people,)

--When are you going to get past the fact that others tried, didn't get it perfect, (but actually got a lot of things right,) --and take responsibility for your town, your lives, your futures, and quit whining like a bunch of babies???

Granted, by percentage of the amount of people in Fresno who claim to be 'Christians,'
-this place is a horrendous example of Gods love and caring... (I don't blame folks for being put off and not wishing to have anything to do with God, I really don't...
We've missrepresented Him terribly, and the damage is extensive,
(and you have my most sincere apologies, as well as (a rather obvious and solemn vow,) to try to live and act differently...

-But to the rest (who find Christianity to be so 'stupid, backwards, and lame,)

-What?, in this quaint little sweltering terrarium between the hills,
-are YOU bringing to the table? (or actually DOING?)

-You're smarter than us, You're far better connnected, and you've displayed no small passion and rage about something as benign as a bunch of cement buildings,
and territories in a remarkably small grid of dirt that nobody two hours from here is really concerned about...
Very good, you have your cause, (and yes, I DO think it's somewhat noble,,, (but I personally only go so far. I could care less about your buildings when it's contrasted to caring about your people.)

But do you have the ability, (Fresno,)
to actually DO anything (really?)
-I mean, besides sitting and whining about how the government (that you elected) has failed,
how your ancestors were 'too religious,'
and how 'everybody else' put you here???

It would appear to me that the common thought about 'God saving Fresno,' is that He's done a terrible job.

-But you (those who don't follow after such a myth,)
Don't have to worry about God saving nor damning Downtown or anyplace else
---because you've discovered that He doesn't exist and that 'the church and it's motives,' is a lie to be avoided.
(...brave findings, but congratulations on your hypothesis, I applaud your ability to stand on something...)

If that's the case,
than you have nothing to worry about,
you are not 'destined,' to fail, (or succeed,)
---and there are no curses nor dark spirits that should hold you back from creating whatever you wish
--And you can thrive (anywhere,)
-How am I sure that you can be successful?
-Because you are so sure that it was the limited scope, dominated by religion that laid the tracks and poisoned the train...
(And that's a simple enough fix.)

Fine then...
How 'bout this...
Ignore us...
We the church currently have issues that we need to resolve.
This will take time.

Some of us will be about that business,
Some of us will be about caring for others,

And we all(supposedly,) have the same goal of seeing Fresno grow, be happy, and all people bustling along in a commonwealth/utopia, ---and should have no reason NOT to be,
----as so much enlightenment has replaced 'ritual and totems,' (such as Bibles.)

Nobody is standing in your way...
And quite frankly, being quite fond of solid and somewhat dangerous competition, I'm quite curious to see what you've brought to the track.

You have my utmost respect, I will assist where I can, and will be here for a number of years, (regardless,) tending to whatever knitting is handed me...

-My question would be...
Can Fresno actually do something besides piss and moan -and blame everybody else,
---or actually DO something? (particularly 'the enlightened, who have so much derision towards the earlier efforts...)

I'd say 'put up or shut up,' --but I doubt loud opinions and complaint will be dropped from the menu of any valley resident anytime soon...
(which may be God's wry humor in plopping me here...)

Your turn, o enlightened ones, (I've got yer back,) but it's time to actually do something...

The truth of the matter is:
A lot of the creative innovators have done great things here, -and then have moved on, -or are about to. (This is cyclical,) Even at ArtHop there were a lot of sincere goodbyes and talk of a migration North.

Now, for all of the pissing and whining that folks do about how the town can be nothing but negative?
-Here's the challange.
-Some of the creatives are leaving.
-Where are the others???
-Will they come from here (and elsewhere,) and build more great things?
-or will the new generation of complainers just weld more metal and further the operation of 'Fresno Sucks,' hamsterwheel?

Turn off the smoke machine, let the air clear, and see what is happening, -and do something with it.
(I promise to hum my hymns quietly so as not to distract you.)

You know, I have heard a great deal of commentaries on the Fulton Mall--why it exists, what it was supposed to achieve, how it coincides with the City's efforts for urban renewal (not urban revitalization!), etc. But Joe's commentary on the suburbanizing of downtown is a new perspective for my ears! I know that for decades we have used suburban remedies for urban issues in Fresno, but I never really saw the Fulton Mall as the catalyst for that. I know that many of these renewal/revitalization efforts stem off of City Beautiful principles (which gave New York Central Park), but I guess we could ask the question, why do we need an urban oasis at this point when there is no hustle and bustle of the urban life to escape from at this point? Don't get me wrong-- I love parks, and think that in Fresno we are in dire and desperate need of more open space, but maybe our emphasis should be not so much on the creation of those urban oases such as the riverwalk, but more on creating that hustle and bustle to support that sort of expense in the first place!

On a different note, what is this about moving sewer lines? Educate me.

That and the sewer lines were moved...

i'm a firm believer in understanding the past. doing so gives insights into ones motivites that would otherwise be unknown. perhaps a leader of our community from those days could enlighten us as to why the change in downtown. or perhaps we could have some fun and recreate our own history while answering the questions restless in the minds of downtown goers - the story as to why downtown was murdered. yes,that would be greatly creative... which is what we are. my attempt #1 (and final unless prompted to upstage a little):

fifty years ago faith leaders around the fresno area gathered for the annual 'ministers life: valley for Christ' retreat in the foothills. at the culmination of prayerful meditation, vision fell upon the ministers described as 'Spirit Guided'. the vision was simple in thought and rather revolutionary when put into practice: a central place for faithful to come together and pray for the lost and weary - a place Gods people could find refuge from the ravaging storm of their lives. when the leaders discussed this idea their hearts swelled at the thought of the impact it would have on those who desperately needed - change. the vision became the sole topic of the retreat as they invested their minds to the planning.

a single concern began to echo among the misisters, how could we afford prime estate property to acheive such a place? soon their swelling hearts began to feel something other then joy. the air of defeat was pungently thick as one minister leaped to his feet and explaimed, "God wants us to kill downtown, to rid it of anything other then government and commerce"... "doing so will give us what we so despirately need". as if guided by devine intervention each minister gained understanding of the vision. through the death of downtown real estate property would be in surplus at a price even the faithful could afford. before long the ministers began to envision their churchs on the vary corners that Theatres and other prominate businesses sat.

concluding the retreat ministers called upon civil and community leaders to help cultivate the vision into what we see today: a dead downtown with a church on just about every corner. And that is what happened to Downtown Fresno. Praise God.

'...several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave, grooving with a Moor(e), er Pict.'
-Pink Floyd, (Umma Gumma)

In true Koyanasquaatsi fashion, I look at all of these changes that were done post Korean Era, --and am reminded of entire concepts of living that were dynamited, --because they were a failure, -recognized as such, and better ideas were implemented... (the whole wretched 'put up facades,' idea... blah!

What I am seriously wondering, (with a truly dark heart, and much cynicism, (New Yorker: we're like that.)

I think people know that this 'waterfront on Kern,' idea will not work..
I think it's a paper tiger, and the funds will go elsewhere, once the project has been approved, (IE: pork barrel.)

What I do find most sad:
-There are people who genuinely care about downtown who want to see great ideas happen, -and it's obviously on the forefront of their mind.

-There are (different,) people who live down there who really could use a leg up,,, -but are completely ignored.

-There are those who are feigning interest, who have control? but really, in the end? wouldn't go downtown for all the tea in China...

I don't see the three together on this a whole lot...

Umma Gumma take my hat off to Joe for his knowledge and his clear presentation of it here on Famous. Thank you sir.

Certainly, the exodus to the suburban shopping centers had already begun by 1964. The same can be said for almost every downtown in the country though. Except in most other cities, things started coming back in the 1980's and 90's. In Fresno, not so much.

The mall represents the values of the era in which it was built. In the
immediate post war era, Fresno sought to remake its downtown in the image of its growing and more popular suburbs. It WAS an attempt to revitalize, but it was NOT an attempt to bring back the atmosphere of the 1920's-50's. The leaders of the post-war era looked at downtown and saw something old, dirty, tacky (flashing neon!), congested and chaotic. Old buildings were seen as a community embarrassment, needing to be "modernized" or even better, torn down. Progress was the name of the game, and newer was better. The suburbs were new and clean, full of order, with cookie cutter houses, nice landscaping, with antiseptic shopping centers full of low one story buildings, fronted by acres upon acres of asphalt covered surface parking.

Thus the mall sought to revitalize downtown by bringing those suburban-like values to the urban core, and making it a more pleasant and peaceful place to shop, and keep downtown as the main regional retail corridor. Where thousands of cars once drove by, there were now trees and flowers and park benches and world class sculptures. The sounds of birds and bubbling fountains replaced car horns and traffic. Large four story buildings like the old Montgomery Wards were torn down, to be replaced by low one story concrete block buildings with large surface parking lots (Longs Drugs). They covered up the fronts of historic buildings with vinyl and steel facades, ripped down the neon and any other reminders of what was, to make the old buildings look more like the ones at Manchester and Ashlan Park. Drop ceilings were installed in grand spaces like the old Security Bank Building. Streets were closed, others were made one way, to "ease" traffic. The city was just a vote away from tearing down the outdated, "old fashioned" Warnors Theatre to make more parking, before Frank Caglia stepped in. Broadway was deemed a "slum" as a red light district and virtually every building there was torn down to make way for even more parking. And the old courthouse torn down, deemed "unsafe" and too provincial, a reminder of the time when Fresno was a sleepy agricultural city, not the modern futuristic city of tomorrow.

The problem is today, those things that the post-war leaders viewed as negatives about downtown (noise, traffic, old buildings, urban living, "tacky" neon signs, high density developments, urban nightlife etc) are the very things that other cities have embraced in the past 20 years, to great success in their downtowns. They're the very things we like today when we visit cities with vibrant, thriving downtowns. It was a different mindset 40 years ago. They would have laughed at the concept of Vagabond Lofts back in 1964! But this is not to say that we want to reject ALL of the post-war values either, like world class public art, landscaping and a pedestrian friendly environment. This is the post-modern world we live in, we want the best of both eras.

How do we do that? I don't know. But the arguments put forward for the River Walk, "it will be a draw for the people living in the suburbs," "it's the big bang project that we need in order to transform downtown," "people love water features," "it will be a nice peaceful place in the middle of the city," were all put forth over 40 years ago to justify building the mall. And now in 2007 we're talking about doing it all over again, and closing more streets, etc when we know that it doesn't work, just by looking at our own history.

I believe downtown had already started its decline before the Fulton Mall was created. Manchester Mall had already opened and growth had started moving its slow crawl to the north. Fresno State will move even all the way out to Shaw and the rest of the surrounding countryside. The Fulton Mall was an attempt to stop this flow and return the vibrancy of the 50's and earlier times.

having seen this view before, --but not knowing that these were of the same locations? This is amazing.

Once the picture finally downloaded, (the computer is rolling quite slow this morning,) It struck me how much the feeling and ambiance of the 'Fulton Mall,' at this point is so much like a highschool, or any 'cafeteria,' that is closed...

then I'm thinking to myself, '...self, why do they put cafeterias and large 'sit outside and eat lunch,' spaces there to begin with???
-Tons of people on their lunch break...

-Perhaps when it was a functional downtown and street (as it was obviously bustling during photo one,) some genius said '...hmm, if we give people a place to sit and eat, they'll SHOP MORE...
(not realizing that by cutting off the circulation to that area? gangrene (sp?) would set in...

With that large whooshing sound of so many (support,) businesses -who no longer are there to 'eat,' at the cafeteria, (and no flow in our out?) -yep, you got a very dead appendage...

(further example of a station manager sitting in a cave grooving with a couple of picts.)
--which, if you can tell me which band uses THAT title, I'll be glad to shake your hand on the next social outing...

50 years ago it was full of life, today it looks empty and lifeless.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

Never seen a picture of Fulton before it was converted into the mall that Fresnans love today.