That's kind of what I was getting at with the whole issue of growth.

Some of the greatest artisans and musicians I've met (even here in the area,) are kind of interesting in that:

-Though they may be 'all about,' a certain scene or a certain town (etc.)
-a lot of them live in remote areas away from town,
(while having studios and such 'in town.')

They contribute greatly to something (even their home area,)
and can even champion another area,
--but it's not relegated to a particular 'area,' per-se, they have a sort of dual citizenship.
(which is what I see you doing.)

In other areas of the country?
This is considered acceptable behavior, it's normal,
--and hopefully it's going to happen more and more here.

A person isn't considered a 'traitor,' if they just go and live and do what they want,
-they're not relegated or identified to 'whereever is accepted as ok' for the creatives.

Blake, that is part of what I was getting at.

Ya see, here, (in Fresno?)
There are some dimwits who think that you have to 'live-breathe-eat-sleep-and pass through your lower digestive tract 'Fresno,'
-and then even?
-again, only 'certain parts' of Fresno (if you are going to be into the Arts or whatever and a lot of those 'certain parts,' refuse to go to Riverpark or Villagio, and frequently refer to it disgustedly as 'sprawl.')

Here in town?
Ya know?
It gets pretty intense.

-During this past year, I've met people who were even actually on the verge of moving from here (to much farther away areas for completely legitimate reasons,)
---who were not telling anyone, because they knew that there'd be a backlash for 'abandoning,' Fresno...

(Again, regarding the amount of artists who've moved on to Portland and other areas: Folks here were like:
'...What, What you talkin' bout, NOBODY left! ...only a few!'
-Like admitting that people change, move on, choose to live elsewhere, or even leave for legitimately (even negative reasons,) was treason.
'No No don't say that, it's further trashing Fresno, and we're trying to stop the drain...'

It can get kinda weird, I mean, the other week, in a situation where I was being publically asked
'...and Eric, what do you need more in the morning more? music, or coffee??'
-When I said 'Both.'
folks were like '...whoah, wrong answer, brother.'
(it was a situation where we were explaining to people how important music was.)
I mean, it was funny and such,
but wow...
---what got me was, the truth couldn't be just 'the truth,'
It had to be
'...no, I'd DIE without music...'
(Truth? Others would probably die if I've not had my coffee...)

-Again, it was lighthearted, but it kind of follows the vein of a type of territorialism / extremism that can be required, and how it's needed to just shout to be heard, and how that's replacing just accepting reality.

'The Loyalty Deathgrip,' 'You don't move to here and leave, you're jumped in and jumped out.' -very Fresno.

To plug it in?
-Yeah, you got a great deal on a house 40 minutes from here in a small town that is not Fresno.
(It's a beautiful place, it's a beautiful small town life, it's (arguably,) way better than anything going on here (safety-wise,)
-gorgeous setting,
and it's not all 'walled in in a gated community that costs hundreds of thousands more'
(like what are most of the neighborhoods in the north of town,
-so Cool, you got a great thing.)

-However?
Some of the mentality that has been so pervasive in terms of town discussion, current issues, the arts, neighborhoods, (etc.) would be like
'...Jeez the guy is so gung-ho on Fresno,
-yet he chose to live elsewhere?, what's up with that?
He couldn't buy something near the Fulton Mall?
Why didn't he put his money where his mouth is?
He couldn't get a big house in a section of town that used to be great and fix it up?
He's a poser,
He's a traitor...
He's not legit!'
---And they would completely overlook and disregard your contributions, care, and involvement with the place,
---because you aren't 'really,' in Fresno and live and work three quarters of an hour away.

(It's an incredibly stupid stance, ---but it most definitley exists, and a lot of folks get rattled by it.)

This affects a lot of things:
-Downtown,
-Tower,
-'Art Scene,' 'ArtHop,'
(etc. etc.)
Socially, it practically demands body branding or something, with the devotees in it 100% and be 'beyond reproach,' regarding allegiance.
(very 'gang,' and 'turf,' oriented.)

-it's created an unhealthy emphasis upon stuff that can range from just plain 'missing the boat,'
-to being really destructive in terms of anyone changing or following community and society to where it's headed.

-So, yeah,
Put ArtHop out as many nights as folks want WHEREVER they want.
That's what I'm saying needs to be addressed.

Recognizing ArtHop or anything that is happening, (that's positive growth and culture happening, in any other area?,
-even in the 'sprawl?'
is excellent,
long overdue,
and a sign of maturity.

-And Blake? Good luck with your show in the Rogue,
maybe, if nothing else?
Folks'll remember the pitch.

why doesnt everyone stop bitching and spread arthop all over fresno and blow up the art scene, no ones selling out so shut the hell up already

I dunno if making a whole extra day per month would work, even though id enjoy it. They should start out by making arthop on a friday or saturday. That way more pple will be out and about anyway. The hours that arthop is open dont make much since either. 5-11 or 5-10 would be better, that would allow time to see more of the galleries. I know when I go, I have enough time to only see a few places here or there.

I've lived in two of the 'poster childs' of sprawl.
What's now 'east central Fresno' and L.A.'s San Fernando Valley.
I learned what I personally do not like about sprawl and began researching
some of the causes of and problems exaggerated by sprawl.
I do not see how, when believing something to be a problem and then trying to think of how to solve it, can be a bad thing.

Now, if you don't see it as a problem, and just see it as 'the way of the world', fine. Obviously, as I said, I just disagree. Are you going to continue typing until I give in and agree with you?

As to why I live in a small town,...how is that relevant to me being oppossed to sprawl? Goodie for me. I found a nice old house and had the opportunity to get in it.

Certainly many small communities have been/might be swallowed by Sprawl.
Look into the San Fernando Valley....all those places:
Reseda, Van Nuys, Canoga Park....used to be seperate little communities.
But now it's "LA".

Once again, I'm not saying 'growth' is bad. I'm not saying all 'change' is bad. I'm saying Sprawl is bad. Bad for communities, bad for people, bad use of land, bad for the economy (long-term).

I apologize to all at FF for letting this 'sprawl' thing take over a massive amount of space here.
I thought it was relevant in my original post.

Mr. Void, it's ok---we disagree. No biggie. I have reasons for my opinions. You have reasons for yours. I'll try and bite my tongue now.

and it's not at all meant to be snide, (seriously.)

You were raised in Fresno, your family was from Fresno, -and you are really pro-Fresno. (which is great.)

Yet you chose to settle down in Kingsburg.
(all for excellent reasons, I suppose, -they made sense to me.)

--Yet somebody could (realistically) say that you just really got a jumpstart on the 'Fresno Sprawl' thing,
---by going to what (will one day be,) the edge of 'Greater Fresno.'

(Face it, this is one of the last places affordable in California, EVERYBODY is moving here, and small towns are being swallowed and becoming 'sections.'

Expecting small towns within an hours drive from Fresno to remain (serously,) free standing is naieve, ---there are probably tons of folks in your town that make their living (basically,) off of Fresno.

-On the East Coast?
It's been argued for the past 30 years that from Boston to D.C. is one giant city...
(...and to folks from here, they really can't tell the difference from Newark NJ to Newark Del.)

The initial subject 'can we handle two art-hops,' -really is about where the culture (people,) are going,
-andhow much of this they want,
and will support, ----which is basically a conversation about town growth, areas of identity changing, ---and why.

A lot of folks who were initialy 'Tower-Downtown rah-rah-rah, no other place to hang out, (screw Riverpark,) are now writing about areas that basically are Riverpark (or Pinedale,) ---and how that they're part of that scent too...
(nothin wrong with that... they are beautiful places.)

In a way?
It's all the same conversation, just different definitions and different points of the same issue.

Fresno is growing massively, ---and in a controled and planned manner,
--problem is, 'what's controlling it,' --is money to be earned, money to be spent, (NOT) real resources available.

-ArtWise?
I totally agree with you...
ArtHop is going to go viral and going to go 'indoors,' and hit the surrounding areas, ---so there goes Tower-Downtown's exclusivity...
--but that's okay.

Those who want to take those areas and do stuff with them, (revitalize, etc,) will do so while everybody is buzzing around elsewhere, ---and folks will one day find it 'cool,' again...
-Will it take another 40 years of arguing about what to do with the Fulton mall and such?
Probably not.
Maybe 39.

But, Downtown and Skynyrd Fans: ---the south of Fresno will rise again.
(though Downtown to me, feels more like 'Molly Hatchet,' than 'Skynyrd...')

Ok, well, I just disagree.
My family grew up what was for a short while 'the edge of town'.
We moved into our new house when I was a baby.
It's now "east central" Fresno.
We got to that bit of field first.
My family's house, in my belief, was part of 'sprawl.'

Guess I just disagree.

'Sprawl' is merely 'growth,'
-put down as 'sprawl,'
by the folks who got there 'first,' and don't want nothin' to change...

(-cha-ching...)

-Why do you think all those Northeast Native American Tribes had all their 'Pilgrims are our Pals,' tattoos surgically removed a few hundred years ago???
(The Pilgrims felt in kind about the Catholics, and the Catholics felt the same about Ozzy Osbourne fans...
-it's the way of the world, grasshopper...

and a thread-discussion purely about 'sprawl?'
-would only yield more 'conversatial sprawl...'

:)

-czech please...

I understand 'growth' and 'sprawl' to be two different things...but I think we're mostly lost in semantics here.
Sprawl, like cancer to the body, is uncontrolled, not thought out---it's just growth for growth's ( or short-term profit's) sake.
Growth, is engineered for success. There's a plan. It's the body making skin cells where skin cells are supposed to go and eyeball cells where eyeball cells should go----growth (the way I'm using the term here) is not bad, but sprawl is.

I'm not saying 'burn down the mess of the last 50 years'. It's here. It is us. Some of it's a mess. Some of it is not. Even the best of it could've been better if things were planned right, but it's now US.
[I only brought up 'sprawl' because I think it is a contributing factor to so many of the Fresno problems we encounter .]

Arthop might help build some bridges and create some cross-flow between these two sometimes disparate populations. It'd be good I think.

Big-time discussions of sprawl are beyond the scope of this thread probably, but there are a ton of studies that show it to be a non-sustainable, non-desirable dinosaur--I'm actually working on a show (whoo heee now THAT's entertainment) about it for the Rogue Festival.

So yeah, arthop here , arthop there---arthop everywhere. Let's go for it.

[y'all can start a thread about sprawl, it might yield some interesting things.]

It's not 'demon sprawl,'
it's just plain growth.

As I work in/on/at folks homes, and ask them 'why Fresno?'
I get the same answers time and again,
'...it was affordable, there was a small town feel' (compared to where they were from,)
--or if they chose to live in a 'new area,' 'they wanted to start 'new and be a part of something creative,' (and to them, it meant a new neighborhood created out of what used to be dirt, brush, and goatheads.)

I'm finding that people live in the various areas of Fresno for the same reasons why you said you chose to settle, work, and raise a family in Kingsburg,
-only for some of them, a new house was more their taste than a old one.
(I don't know what it is with folks needing to live in a 'house that nobody else has lived in,' (I mean, c'mon, it's a (slightly,) used house, not a 'slightly used,' pair of underwear...
(Old houses are usually way better better built and more solid than new ones,
(you can't even really fully insure a Fres High Tower Craftsman (etc.) to rebuild it with the same materials,
as to replicate the materials and methods used?, it would cost (I'm hearing,) a couple mil...)
I just don't get folks obsession with 'new.')

Though I havn't lived in other parts of the state that are all overwrought,
-nearly everybody who is coming to live here are doing so for the 'small town - we can build a life - it's conservative and good for kids (?!) here,' reputation.
(And that's from po'folks on up to Surgeons.)

-They don't see it as 'sprawl,'(most of them don't believe in demons, either, which I don't think really throws the demons off trail, to be frank.)

-They see it like everybody's parents and grandparents saw Fresno when it was just a small stop for trains,
(and a good deal is a good deal, still.)
(If you consider here to be a good thing and what you want to be a part of in a community sense, raise your kids in, hang out until yer dead, etc...)

It would not seem to be the mindset of most folks out here to want to move into an area that is run-down, or considered 'dangerous,' where the very act of living somewhere is 'confrontational,' and 'reclaiming/re-establishing society,' (It's like having to brandish a machete just to make it to the bathroom every morning, -it's cute when you're young, but when you get older, and start to get 'stuff,' and a wife and kids? you want to choose your battles, -and a sense of safety plays a big part.)
-There is a definite danger aspect to 'downtown,' in folks minds (that does have some credibilty,,, I've heard folks outside of Fresno referring to 'any' of Fresno in this manner.)

-Tower is too expensive and tightly controlled as to what you can and cannot do (and is not really known as 'family safe,')
--Bohemian? Sure,
-but it's not exactly noted for it's 'family/conservative,' atmosphere.

-There are lots of areas that are being built up that are good communities where folks are like
'...okay,
it's affordable,
has good schools,
is easy to deal with as a commute,
and feels 'safe,'
and is quiet,
-yet close to 'the city.'
-and to a great extent they are correct.

(In that sort of setting, folks want to get creative, and they have been very creative all through time in such a setting, -they create families, (which is it's own work of art.)

Further?
When I tell people (such as twenty-thirty somethings,) who live in areas such as the NE, NW, or Clovis, (yep, twentysomethings get together and rent places in clovis because it's 'safer, quieter, more grounded, not far from work, affordable' (etc. etc.)
-About stuff like:
'Rogue,' or 'Art-Bike Hop?'
---they are like 'Cool, Really? I sorta heard about that, I don't go to downtown, but THAT I'd really like to check out.'
(So, when they know about it, they are interested.)
--The youngers ('milleniums,' 'and gen X'rs') however, were raised to think downtown and tower was (at best,) 'skuzzy and adventerous,' --and avoided it because of what their parents told them, (or what they found simply going there.)
-But they TOTALLY give the place a try if there is something cool that they want to check out.
(So they venture down to traditional 'Art-Hop,' areas, and have a great time.)
---ArtHop and other cultural events happening more in their comfort zone means that such things are going to go huge, btw.

Most people are not really looking to be creeped and have been raised to avoid 'seedy,' and 'run-down - dangerous looking' places (kinda human/animal nature, actually,)
-there is a bit of a 'fear factor,' to contend with.

The group gets together and says, 'Lets go hang after work down at ______ in the tower,'
-folks say
'...what? why do you want to go there? We can go to _______ instead.'
And they choose places that are new, attractive, have no bad reputation to live down, --and are beautifully presented
(and closer to home.)

I'm not saying that Milleniums and Gen X,Y's are shallow or don't have allegiances, (they are actually more open and tend to think more openly and deeper, -with less prejudice than their parents,)

-But there are some things that are kind of a 'no-brainer,' -(At least here,)
-they are very 'group,' oriented, they tend to understand things like good business/domestic/educational/career paths,
-and their decisions in some cases almost appear binary, based upon sound logic.
'...Okay, you guys want to bust off after work and hit Roe?'
(or)
'...You guys want to head down into the Tower and see what's happening there...'

-They'll pick Roe, Famous Daves, Roadhous, (Starbucks, etc.) or something closer, cleaner, safer feeling, and without all the political and socio-emotional entanglements.
(The goal? 'go somewhere, chill out, hang with friends, be safe, not spend all night, and be around other folks who are like-minded.'
---NOT---
Go places, and Do stuff because they're 'supposed to and for some 'cause,' (they just did that all day / all week at work.)

I sorta wonder sometimes,
-if people avoid Tower/Downtown BECAUSE of all of the hubub and din (and gothic arguements and such,) that surround it.
It's like somebody putting on a Record, saying '...You need to like this, this is good, this is cool, this is the pinnacle of _______, if you don't like this, -you don't like music.'
(I drove my younger sister nuts with 'Genesis,' that way, -my little brother drove me nuts regarding 'Miles Davis' same fashion.
(I think my sister is forever scarred, though I am starting to like Miles on my own terms when my brother's not looking.)

--With a staging like that, it's like two sides trying to 'fix-up,' a couple that EVERYBODY thinks should be a couple...
-By time they actually meet each other, there's been so much spin and pressure, it is a deterrant.

People just go where they think it's cool, and where they feel safe and relaxed,
-then they start to create stuff.
Most Art/Music/Design/Culture is based upon the person (the consumer,) finding that it meets their needs and that they 'like it.'
It's ultimately very self-serving, and kind of indulgent,

(Again, it's why people choose to live where they want, --IF they can have that choice, (it's why they pick the 'one section' of town, city, county, state, -over 'the other,' why they pick the red one over the blue one, why they go with 'this' as a side-dish, vs. 'that'.)

-Downtown/Tower (any of this,) has got to be considered 'desirable,' on folks own terms, -because they think it's so,
-Not because everybody's telling them that it is.

ArtHop, (anything actually,) is going to morph along those lines.

My gut tells me this is how California was founded, how Fresno was founded, and certainly how it's going to continue.

Yep, Fresno: the 'Demon Sprawl,' of Oklahoma...
(There's a Rob Zombie song in there somewhere...)

I've written a few times of my frustrations that despite noble
efforts to the contrary, many of the possibly-arts-interested
NorthTowners don't seem to even KNOW about Arthop. And when
they do,yup

the geographical and then psychological seperation


caused by DemonSprawl
tends to discourage their participation.

So......I liked the options on the ol' Vote o' Machine at the Arts Council site that put Tower/Downtown on one night, and other venues on another.
This I think would put more focus on Northern galleries (which I never visit on arthop cuz there just ain't time to hit two so seperated bits o' town in those few hours) for their special night. Also, hopefully it would increase participation in the non-Tower/Downtown venues AND promote cross-over BOTH ways---a super win/win situation.

All I know is, it's hard for a non-downtown working stiff to make it out on a Thursday night. A Saturday or Friday thrown into the mix would help. But maybe just to open a "season" because I fear if it was once a month, the luster or buzz of the Thursday Arthop would be gone.
----------
www.thefresnan.com

Travelling around Fresno a bit in recent weeks, it's becoming really obvious that there are many different Fresnos.

ArtHop going to more than one day, and going to different areas (the different areas thing not being a new idea,) will be an interesting change that needs to happen.

Traditional 'ArtHop,' has been Tower and Downtown, (pretty easily connected.)

But as the town progresses?,
I can see where folks -who would not normally want to head into the Tower or Downtown (who have their own lovely areas to hang in?)
would want to bring things 'closer to home.'
(That's a good thing.)

Making it more than one night a month?
Also could be great,

---But the bigger issue (regardless,) is that it starts and ends too soon, so I'd add an hour or so onto it, regardless.
(More folks will come out, guaranteed.)

All this reflects changes in Fresno's 'arts,' and the changes of Fresno the Town(s.)
I think it's excellent in that it's honest, not a bunch of territorial posturing.

It also reflects the shifts and such in Fresno's 'Art Scene,' a lot of the folks who were 'really hitting,' (arts/music,) as recently as a year ago? have bounced up to Portland.
Folks are saying 'no they didn't,' 'as some sort of protection of the image, thing,'
---but when they bill their shows (upon returning,) with such lines as: '...bringing back a bunch of folks who used to live in Fresno...'
-the cat's kind of out of the bag.)

However, even at Broadway Studios (where there were once very small studio spaces, each contributing to a 'bazaar-booth,' feel on ArtHop night?
-the walls have been blown out between the studios in some cases,
-and artists (now with more room,) are creating and are able to breathe, (which I've heard them really happy about.)
The tone itself has changed, (which some have complained about:
'It's getting old, it's getting boring, it's becoming too mainstream 'sell-out,')
has changed,
To be honest? I find it deepening and finding more of a maturation in terms of the works presented, the works discussed, face time with the artist if you want it, (etc.)
more 'grown up,' in a way, and not as
'turbulent/staccato/ADD/Party-Party' as it used to be.

Either way, we still have great people here, and the arts community has always emulated the past as some sort of critique.

Like Fresno?
That ArtHop is branching out, and going more 'local,' in terms of the varying areas of Fresno
-also means that it's shifting the focus away from some sort of 'revitalize downtown thing,'
(makes you have to wonder: 'Is this about bringing culture and the arts to Fresno?
(or all about just one section of town that everybody is constantly probing and taking a pulse on?)

If it's 'all about the tower and downtown,'
-the openning of the gates, (so to speak,) means less people at 'that,' section.
-But seriously, Make something beautiful, nice, and safe, (within reasonable distance to where people life? -you're good to go.

Keep open doors on patrons, after all, you want 'friends,' or hostages?

-This also means the breaking down of barriers and 'zones,' in the city,
-so there will be more of a blended atmosphere in terms of the arts (citywide,)
which means that those areas, (up to now just derided as:
'...Sprawl!, I remember when that was a perfectly good bunch of miles of dirt and scrub-brush, now it's all yuppies and volvo's... *spit,*')

-Now these areas are going to be legitimized by 'the cool,' hanging where nobody admitted to liking before.
(N.E., Riverpark, etc. etc.)
This is already beginning to happen with the music, food, social gatherings, 'events and atmosphere' reviews on FresFam, MindHub, BeeHive, (etc,) and a lot of 'Tower Only,' folks are beginning to relax with that pit-bull territorial thing.
(Bravo,)
I like it, some of these areas really are beautiful and very friendly in atmosphere, and in the end?

It's all Fresno.

Will folks go all crying 'sell-out,' and 'traitor!,' because the scene is shifting away from 'the sacred cow of Tower-Downtown?' as the 'Hot-Bed of culture?'
Probably. -But such narrow-mindedness simply doesn't hold out.
It is what it is.

It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out,
(One night or two, (whatever,) at least, extend the hours.)

i applaud there effort, because i think they really want to stimulate the arts in this town.

as one that visits places on art hop, it's probably good to spread it out some. but, i also know that it doesn't matter when they do art hop in other parts of town. i'm probably not making it out there. i barely can drag my rear out of the tower to downtown to check out those spots.

i wonder if people that visit sports in the north, east, etc also visit the tower/downtown spots. if they don't, would they if it was a different night?